Bogus T206 Packs

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

Current bid on this one is $1025. (Reserve not met) Obviously an opened pack since it's leaking tobacco. No mention of it being opened or not. Can't understand why someone would bid so much for an opened pack.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Honus-Wagner-T206-Sweet-Caporal-Pack-GAI-6_W0QQitemZ270018064915QQihZ017QQcategoryZ44827QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This one mentions "N.Y red sticker seals " just like the above one. Different seller or not? 1883 tax stamp. No way did it have a T206 card in it. Current bid $599! What does he mean by N.Y red sticker seals ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-T206-Sweet-Caporal-Tobacco-Box-GAI-5-5_W0QQitemZ220018170580QQihZ012QQcategoryZ44827QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Russ Bright

not to disagree with you, but as a smoker...

First thing, on the Tab of the pack with the loose tobacco in it it says unopened. There are still cigarettes in there, and I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure that 95 year old cellophane won't be air tight. Tobacco gets everywhere (even now with my new pack of camels). I saw this and thought that it was pretty lame that the pack had leaked into the "sealed" holder... I would see if it was possible to get it re-holdered in something that would keep the tobacco contained better. It just looks ugly...

and 1883 tax stamp? not certain where you see that, but again as a smoker... the tax stamps on the bottom may have the date of when the Tax was passed, so you know that since 1883 you have been paying taxes on these cigarettes...

it's almost half taxes nowadays...

SO, I think that the first one is sealed but ugly, the second one is authentic and beautiful, but still out of my pricerange...

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

I find it hard to believe that a sealed pack would leak that much. An opened one would. Aren't they suppose to have a wax paper wrapper?

The second pack shows "Act of March..." and barely visable "18xx" on the tax stamp. I have a Cycle box with "Act of March 3d, 1883". That why I think it's 1883.

Edited to add: On the first pack the tax stamp doesn't continue onto the front of the pack. I compared his pack with mine. My tax stamp is located exactly the same spot on the back as his. But mine wraps all the way around the side of the box and continues to the front of the box. Anyone agree?

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Posted By: Rick

has anyone ever gotten some high grade cards (baseball, etc) out of these packs?

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Posted By: JimB

There is a series of photos of one being pulled from a pack on T206museum.com
JimB

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Posted By: Cobby33

I got a sweet Asian pasture scene out of a T215 pack. SGC graded it 80.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I won't comment on how much, but old unopened cigarette packs can leak
some tobacco. I would guess the circa 1909 slide box pack (like a modern slide
box of wooden matches) would leak less tobacco than say 1920s boxes, which had
fold in tops like a Milk Duds box-- but that's just a guess. I had a carton of
sealed 1920s cigarette packs, and I can tell you that they leaked some tobacco
while sealed.

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Posted By: david poses

on the gai slab, it says "empty cigarette box." doesn't that imply that there is no card inside?

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Posted By: matt

Richard-

In my experience all of the leaking tobacco is something that happens when they holder the pack at GAI. I have sent in a few beautiful non leaky packs to GAI only to come back holdered with a bunch of loose tobacco? Maybe the air comperession or something like that happens when they slab the pack and distrupts the tobacco? Only my 2 cents-

Matt

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Posted By: James Feagin

Can someone educate me on proper tobacco terminology for these packs. I am familiar with what a tax stamp is (how long were they good for?). I also know what an inside slide is as well. What about the tobacco boxes that are hinged, and flip open and have an inner display? FYI, I'm not a smoker

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't smoke either and don't know the terminology, but can
tell you that box design-wise a 1909 Sweet Caporal box and a 1925
Sweet Caporal box look nearly identical externally. The average person
couldn't tell whether or not it's a slide box without opening it.
Additionally, the 1920s packs are commonly in a transluscent glassine-like
paper wrap, making it difficult to closely inspect the openings. It should
be noted that the tax stamp is on the inside of the wrap, so if the wrap
is removed, the pack is still unopened. Also, the wrap is very delicate
and it would be hard to remove and put back on the wrap without clearly
damaging it.

In fact, the 1909 and 1920s Sweet Caporals use nearly identical graphics.
The only differnce being the tax stamp, other printed info.

What's particulary funny about the 'Milk Dud' box-style Sweet Caporal boxes
is that one end is sealed with a tax stamp, but the other end has an
identical flap opening with no seal. You can open one end, remove all the contents,
replace the contents with gummy bears, and the tax stamp will never be
broken. Of course, the 1920s Sweet Caporal boxes have no cards in them,
so it's no bid deal.

If someone ever shows video of a T206 Ty Cobb being removed from a sealed
1927 Sweet Caporal cigarette box, you've just learned how it was done.

I haven't had one in a while, but I beleive the slide boxes are a slide out
box inside a shell. In this case, the tax stamp really does seal the slide box, as there
is only one door to get it. As noted, I haven't seen one in person in a
while, so someone would have to confirm this and/or show a picture.

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Posted By: tfever

Not completely true. SC packs have tax stamp on one end and SC band on the other. I have this SC pack with half SC band broken but the other side of the band and tax stamp are tightly intacted. Based on the condition, I don't think my pack has been opened or tampered with.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Why the opened pack label on the Gai slab ? Why would GAI encapsulate this ?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
Someone let me know when they find a T206 that came from Factory no. 30 4Th dist of NC, then my back collection will be complete. Especially a Wagner, maybe those morons trying to sell "mr. Blue eyes" on EBAY should buy this pack to complicate there story even more.

I agree with David, if you don't have a lot of experience with packs, don't even consider trying to purchase "unopened T206 packs", graded or not, because 99.999999%%%% of them have no chance of containing a card, much less a Wagner.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The cardless Sweet Caporal, Piedmont or whatever packs can be swell display pieces for
a T206 collection, but, when in doubt, bid assuming there isn't a T206 inside.

If someone wants to spend $75 or $100 on a Sweet Caporal pack, I see nothing
wrong with that. People spending $1,000 for some of these SC packs is just
plain goofy.

Placing a $599 bid on an empty SC box, because it's holdered by GAI, is nothing less than insanity.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Just to answer a few questions posed...

First,ha tax stamps do not necessarily completely seal a pack from the T-206 series. Sweet Caporal, Piedmont and Cycle usually put a tax stamp over one end of the box and/or had rice paper wrappings. However, Broadleaf, American Beauty, and more often that not, Sovereign did not. Instead, a complete tax stamp would be put on the back of the pack. Old Mill also did this. With these packs, it is enarly impossible to tell if a "sealed" pack is truly unopened.

Second, tobacco does leak. I have many sealed packs - tobacco leaks in almost all of them. Funny enough, my Sweet Caporal still in its rice paper has tobacco leaking out of it!

Lastly - terminology wise; Sweet Caporal, Piedmont, etc are called "slide and shells." El Principe De Gales, Turkey Reds and other "pill box" type designed packs are usually termed "clam-shell" design.

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Posted By: Rich Mueller

Maybe this is a dumb question, but with today's technology, would it theoretically be possible to do an MRI or other type of test on a pack to see if indeed there is a card inside?

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

http://cgi.ebay.com/ULTRA-RARE-1910-Sweet-Caporal-unopened-pack-GAI_W0QQitemZ300020569128QQihZ020QQcategoryZ106178 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

T206 boxes had 10 cigarettes and not 15 like this one.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

What I always find interesting is that the man who produced the standard tax stamp
charts/history used by collectors to help date packs was an anti-tobacco campaigner
who studied the history of the tobacco industry as part of his campaign. I asked him
if I could reproduce his chart for the benefit of baseball card collectors and he said
no problem.

I beleive MRIs are expensive. And I don't know how the doctor will look at you when you
bring in a cigarette pack as the patient. Maybe he'll say, "Hey, if I get the same
per MRI, what do I care? Bring in a lamp next time."

My doctor's family has his aunt's wedding program signed by Ty Cobb. Apparently
Cobb was staying at the same Philadelphia hotel where the wedding was taking place.
Each and every time I visit him, in the middle of the checkup he remembers I'm involved
with sports memorabilia and tells me about the Cobb wedding program ... According
to him Cobb was quite the gentleman and danced a dance with his aunt ... Next time I
see the good doctor, I'll ask him about the logistics of MRIing a cigarette pack.
As he has an interest in old baseball memorabilia, he might not find the subject
too silly. Realize that I've taken lithium for most of my adult life, and he might
alter the dosage if I bring up a subject any sillier than MRIing a cigarette pack.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Rich,

My father is a dentist and has x-ray equiptment in his surgical room. I actually tried once, by placing a T-206 into a full pack. I could not make out any image in the x-ray. I did it out of curiosity. This isn't to say a high-tech machine could do much better. However, a dental x-ray machine could not help!