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  #101  
Old 04-17-2018, 03:55 PM
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IMO, invoking religion/faith to create the impression that one is honest and trustworthy is, more often than not, a big red flag.
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  #102  
Old 04-17-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
IMO, invoking religion/faith to create the impression that one is honest and trustworthy is, more often than not, a big red flag.
~cough~candiman~cough~
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  #103  
Old 04-17-2018, 04:10 PM
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~cough~candiman~cough~
Indeed, the brothers seem to have left the kitchen.
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  #104  
Old 04-17-2018, 04:28 PM
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I completely agree. Even if he is young (and I very much doubt he is younger than 20 based upon reading his words in this thread) he pursued an extended con. If someone makes a lot of mistakes when they are young that primarily screws up their own life (drugs, alcohol, etc.), I'm sympathetic. If the focus is on damaging someone's else life that's a whole different ballgame in my book. Plus I'm really tired of those that follow this pattern:

1) Sell yourself as an extremely devout Christian do-gooder by saying things like "all blessings to Jesus, our Lord and savior, etc."

2) Do a series of things over a long period of time deliberately damaging other peoples' lives.

3) Once caught (not before then), ask or expect to be vindicated though a bunch of superficial mea culpas.

I don't buy it, and I don't see that as being harsh or overly punitive. I see it as being a realist. If he earnestly wants to compensate for conning people he can undertake his own self-exile away from this Board/hobby. We are all full up on bad actors in this hobby. There is no need for another casting call in a year.

Well said, James. This guy is so full of shit its coming out of his ears. Unfortunately, we are seeing this type of stuff once a month these days. Very unfortunate.

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  #105  
Old 04-17-2018, 06:58 PM
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He denied being one. Not every single member of our 9000+ members collect cards....But if someone saw they were a member here at a primarily card forum, they might assume they were a collector of cards. But it's not always the case.
Exactly Leon. In '99-'02, a band I was in played a show that unfortunately had a couple skinheads present. We all just kinda shook our heads. Six months or so later we played the same city and venue. Shocking, the place was packed with these disturbing individuals. Next thing we know an offer comes in to play some hate festival. We find our bands & members names on their website. Lots of time and effort to get removed but I'm not 100% there isn't something lingering. 🤟

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
When you read the OP's words they do not sound like they are coming from a HS kid(see conversations with Kyle)--they sound like an older person. Call me skeptical, but I do not believe he is in HS.
Leon-Has he given you any proof that he is in HS?
No way he's in HS. I have three boys aged 15-20. They DO NOT communicate like this. Brother... Come on. That's how me and my friends talk, I'm 45. Side note, my father taught me at a young age that a theif was the lowest of all, preying on others for any reason, forgot. Nope. Yes people can and do change but a theif will never stop if opportunity arises. Coming back? Wait. Are we going to continue to allow this sort of individual to gain knowledge from all you fine folks for possible/probably future use?

Rant done.
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  #106  
Old 04-17-2018, 08:21 PM
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  #107  
Old 04-17-2018, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
IMO, invoking religion/faith to create the impression that one is honest and trustworthy is, more often than not, a big red flag.
I am the Music Director at a Christian church, grew up in the church, and believe in it very strongly --- and I completely agree with this statement. When someone is that over the top with it, it's a red flag everywhere...including in the church.
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  #108  
Old 04-17-2018, 11:13 PM
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What a tremendously sad situation. With so much fraud and deceit, the hobby is getting harder to enjoy.

I remember when the cards were the focal point of collecting. Now, it seems like the scammers and BS stories get a disproportionate amount of the attention and headlines.
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  #109  
Old 04-17-2018, 11:29 PM
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What a tremendously sad situation. With so much fraud and deceit, the hobby is getting harder to enjoy.

I remember when the cards were the focal point of collecting. Now, it seems like the scammers and BS stories get a disproportionate amount of the attention and headlines.
I think the majority are good honest people who are here as a hobby not to poach. There will always be bad apples, especially when money is involved. But that is the exception and for the most part, we collectors are a good bunch. Want proof, look no further than all those friend and family transactions.
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  #110  
Old 04-18-2018, 12:55 AM
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Inexcusable behavior for sure. When I came onto this board I was in MIDDLE school and still knew enough to know that this behavior is fraudulent. I dont know how educated Noah is on the hobby, but from his posts it seems he should know better than this... however, if hes as young as he says he is, I think he can learn from this and be a good fellow young member of the card collecting community down the road. Id give him another chance
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  #111  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:20 AM
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I think that someone who commits fraud, especially against other members should be banned for life from the board. By letting him back after a year or whatever shows that we forgive him for ripping us off. If somebody tries to hurt or rip me off, I cut off all ties with them forever. We do not need these people in the hobby and need to send a strong message to them.

Banning somebody from the board is only part of the solution. He will still be able to sell stuff on eBay and rip off unsuspecting people. eBay will still allow this type of behavior.
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  #112  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Buythatcard View Post
I think that someone who commits fraud, especially against other members should be banned for life from the board. By letting him back after a year or whatever shows that we forgive him for ripping us off. If somebody tries to hurt or rip me off, I cut off all ties with them forever. We do not need these people in the hobby and need to send a strong message to them.

Banning somebody from the board is only part of the solution. He will still be able to sell stuff on eBay and rip off unsuspecting people. eBay will still allow this type of behavior.
We have a year to think about reinstatement. If the time comes (and after age verification) this might be the first poll to see if someone gets reinstated. There doesn't seem to be a unanimous thinking on it?

PS. I wish the threads showing how there IS TODAY millions (I doubt that is an exaggeration) of dollars of fraud going on, got as much attention. Sigh.....
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  #113  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon View Post
We have a year to think about reinstatement. If the time comes (and after age verification) this might be the first poll to see if someone gets reinstated. There doesn't seem to be a unanimous thinking on it?

PS. I wish the threads showing how there IS TODAY millions (I doubt that is an exaggeration) of dollars of fraud going on, got as much attention. Sigh.....
One problem about waiting to decide in a year from now is that many of us will forget what happened. There will also be many new members who do not know anything about this incident.
We will never get rid of fraud completely. Hopefully, this board can continue to knock some of them out. I think that you(Leon) and the rest of this board have done a terrific job in trying to keep this hobby clean.
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  #114  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Buythatcard View Post
One problem about waiting to decide in a year from now is that many of us will forget what happened. There will also be many new members who do not know anything about this incident.
We will never get rid of fraud completely. Hopefully, this board can continue to knock some of them out. I think that you(Leon) and the rest of this board have done a terrific job in trying to keep this hobby clean.
i kind of agree with this sentiment. i think the board should have a zero tolerance policy on crookery aimed at its members. 1 strike and you're out!

Time to make the donuts?
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  #115  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Buythatcard View Post
One problem about waiting to decide in a year from now is that many of us will forget what happened. There will also be many new members who do not know anything about this incident.
We will never get rid of fraud completely. Hopefully, this board can continue to knock some of them out. I think that you(Leon) and the rest of this board have done a terrific job in trying to keep this hobby clean.
We have seen 12+ yrs old threads bumped more than once. Collectively our members have very good memories and find these threads quickly. Not everyone's memory is as bad as mine. I also feel like I am arguing with my wife about things that might, or probably won't, happen in the future. Thanks for the kind words of trying to keep the riff raff out.

As for one strike and you are out, I agree if there is fraud where someone is currently financially harmed. If there is no financial harm I am more lenient. But a poll on this one could be interesting.
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  #116  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:48 AM
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But a poll on this one could be interesting.
true DAT!
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  #117  
Old 04-18-2018, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
PS. I wish the threads showing how there IS TODAY millions (I doubt that is an exaggeration) of dollars of fraud going on, got as much attention. Sigh.....
Leon,

This comment hasn't gone unnoticed. Scary coming from you since I feel
you know more of what goes on day after day!
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  #118  
Old 04-18-2018, 09:04 AM
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Maybe "fraud related" threads could be placed in their own forum for search/posterity purposes. Down by the Water Cooler forums or below the testing forum maybe. Other card forums have a 'bad trader' section so perhaps this is something to consider. OTOH cluttering up the site with additional forums may not be desirable. Just thinking out loud here as it were.
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  #119  
Old 04-18-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by commishbob View Post
Maybe "fraud related" threads could be placed in their own forum for search/posterity purposes. Down by the Water Cooler forums or below the testing forum maybe. Other card forums have a 'bad trader' section so perhaps this is something to consider. OTOH cluttering up the site with additional forums may not be desirable. Just thinking out loud here as it were.
I still think that this main forum would be the best place to discuss it. Having it buried in another section might make it difficult to find.
But the idea of having a "fraud related" thread can list sellers and buyers who have done wrong in the business. Who to watch out for. I would love to see a list of eBay buyers who have tried ripping off sellers so that I can block them. I would also love to see the same thing for sellers.
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  #120  
Old 04-18-2018, 09:28 AM
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Maybe there should be a pinned thread that lists people that have been found to be scamming/committing fraud. This way people know to proceed with caution in dealing with those people in the event that are reinstated on the forum.
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  #121  
Old 04-18-2018, 09:29 AM
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My opinion is that if he can prove he's a high school teen, then he should serve his 1 year sentence and be re-instated with limited access to the BST (as a buyer only, not a seller - at least not for a while). We should just chalk it up as being young, irresponsible and immature. That's assuming Leon talks to him and gets the feeling that he's truly sorry.

On another note, I think banning someone for being a neo-Nazi is far worse than being a neo-Nazi. Since when does Net54 moderators intrude in people's personal lives and what they do outside the boards as long as the propaganda is not being espoused on the boards? I don't care what someone does outside the boards as long as they have positive things to contribute to the boards. I don't care if they're a member of the KKK, BLM, what political party they belong to, their religion or whatever. Why is any of that important to board membership (again as long as they're not espousing their views on the board)? Very, very intrusive. Worse than gov't intrusion in my opinion. Guess that's what America is coming to.
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  #122  
Old 04-18-2018, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Buythatcard View Post
I still think that this main forum would be the best place to discuss it. Having it buried in another section might make it difficult to find.
But the idea of having a "fraud related" thread can list sellers and buyers who have done wrong in the business. Who to watch out for. I would love to see a list of eBay buyers who have tried ripping off sellers so that I can block them. I would also love to see the same thing for sellers.
We have generally avoided a bad sellers or buyers section, primarily, because of the age old wisdom - There are 3 sides to every story. Just don't know if we want to go down that rabbit hole. The way we do it today has worked fairly well for a long time. And there "could" be some liability issues I can think of, on the forum's part, if we hosted that specific area. There might be more headache than it's worth.
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  #123  
Old 04-18-2018, 09:39 AM
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I think that you(Leon) and the rest of this board have done a terrific job in trying to keep this hobby clean.

I 100% agree with this. You guys, everyone, does an unbelievable job!
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  #124  
Old 04-18-2018, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
My opinion is that if he can prove he's a high school teen, then he should serve his 1 year sentence and be re-instated with limited access to the BST (as a buyer only, not a seller - at least not for a while). We should just chalk it up as being young, irresponsible and immature. That's assuming Leon talks to him and gets the feeling that he's truly sorry.

On another note, I think banning someone for being a neo-Nazi is far worse than being a neo-Nazi. Since when does Net54 moderators intrude in people's personal lives and what they do outside the boards as long as the propaganda is not being espoused on the boards? I don't care what someone does outside the boards as long as they have positive things to contribute to the boards. I don't care if they're a member of the KKK, BLM, what political party they belong to, their religion or whatever. Why is any of that important to board membership (again as long as they're not espousing their views on the board)? Very, very intrusive. Worse than gov't intrusion in my opinion. Guess that's what America is coming to.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. I do care. If there is a confirmed skinhead, KKK member or worse on this board, and I find out, they won't be here. And if anyone doesn't like it they can pound sand.
BTW, I actually see the point being made concerning interfering in private lives. But this is a private board and it's not going to cater to those extreme haters, even if they don't espouse their hate on the board, while the current management is in place.
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  #125  
Old 04-18-2018, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon View Post
We have generally avoided a bad sellers or buyers section, primarily, because of the age old wisdom - There are 3 sides to every story. Just don't know if we want to go down that rabbit hole. The way we do it today has worked fairly well for a long time. And there "could" be some liability issues I can think of, on the forum's part, if we hosted that specific area. There might be more headache than it's worth.
Makes sense. Just keep things the way they are. It appears to be working.
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  #126  
Old 04-18-2018, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
We have generally avoided a bad sellers or buyers section, primarily, because of the age old wisdom - There are 3 sides to every story. Just don't know if we want to go down that rabbit hole. The way we do it today has worked fairly well for a long time. And there "could" be some liability issues I can think of, on the forum's part, if we hosted that specific area. There might be more headache than it's worth.
That makes sense. Thanks for the response Leon.
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  #127  
Old 04-18-2018, 12:08 PM
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I couldn't disagree more strongly. I do care. If there is a confirmed skinhead, KKK member or worse on this board, and I find out, they won't be here. And if anyone doesn't like it they can pound sand.
BTW, I actually see the point being made concerning interfering in private lives. But this is a private board and it's not going to cater to those extreme haters, even if they don't espouse their hate on the board, while the current management is in place.
The question then becomes where do you draw the line(s) and what's too extreme left and what's too extreme right?

As an odd personal experience/example, one of the first online groups I joined was an AOL chat board about listening to shortwave radio.

Turns out one member was a well known - like was on TV here in the US- racist. Except he was just a really mellow one, didn't come across as hateful, didn't express a wish for violence on anyone, just didn't want to live next door to anyone who wasn't like him. (Something I totally disagree with and find really undesirable even the relaxed way he expressed it) He got in an argument with someone from the Netherlands who explicitly stated that anyone who was racist should be killed. And did so repeatedly. Like round up the racists and get rid of them all.

Most of us just wanted them both to stfu and get back to discussing what weird radio stations were on what frequency....


So which would get banned? The mellow A-Hole, or the violence promoting guy who was probably ok in real life?
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  #128  
Old 04-18-2018, 12:17 PM
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Hi all, I took about a 2 year hiatus from the board (self imposed, got a little burned out) and logged in two days ago for the first time. I was really saddened to see this thread. Seems this hobby can't ever get rid of the bad apples and when they do, another one grows from the tree.

That is all.
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  #129  
Old 04-18-2018, 12:33 PM
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The question then becomes where do you draw the line(s) and what's too extreme left and what's too extreme right?

As an odd personal experience/example, one of the first online groups I joined was an AOL chat board about listening to shortwave radio.

Turns out one member was a well known - like was on TV here in the US- racist. Except he was just a really mellow one, didn't come across as hateful, didn't express a wish for violence on anyone, just didn't want to live next door to anyone who wasn't like him. (Something I totally disagree with and find really undesirable even the relaxed way he expressed it) He got in an argument with someone from the Netherlands who explicitly stated that anyone who was racist should be killed. And did so repeatedly. Like round up the racists and get rid of them all.

Most of us just wanted them both to stfu and get back to discussing what weird radio stations were on what frequency....


So which would get banned? The mellow A-Hole, or the violence promoting guy who was probably ok in real life?
I feel it is my duty to try to provide a relaxing, peaceful and friendly environment around here. The fact that there could be some who espouse hatred being in those groups, makes it uncomfortable for many members including myself. If someone keeps their views to themself, and they aren't running for the Grand KKK dude, then they probably wouldn't even be known about on this forum. I think it comes down to who we want to associate with. I firmly believe the great majority here don't want to associate with hate mongers. This just isn't the place for those confirmed members of extremist organizations. I can't imagine trying to do a deal with a known skinhead or Natzi on the BST, therefore it's not going to happen.
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  #130  
Old 04-18-2018, 12:43 PM
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I feel it is my duty to try to provide a relaxing, peaceful and friendly environment around here. The fact that there could be some who espouse hatred being in those groups, makes it uncomfortable for many members including myself. If someone keeps their views to themself, and they aren't running for the Grand KKK dude, then they probably wouldn't even be known about on this forum. I think it comes down to who we want to associate with. I firmly believe the great majority here don't want to associate with hate mongers. This just isn't the place for those confirmed members of extremist organizations. I can't imagine trying to do a deal with a known skinhead or Natzi on the BST, therefore it's not going to happen.
I can agree with that.

I don't have much tolerance for them either, but I also don't go out of my way to find out stuff about everyone I come in contact with. Like you said, if they stick to cards and aren't a public figure or activist we'll probably never know.
I just think a situation could come up where there's a disagreement about hobby stuff (Nah, that never happens! ) And someone digs up something to get the other person kicked off. That wouldn't seem fair to me even if I didn't like the persons views.
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  #131  
Old 04-18-2018, 12:54 PM
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So if Hitler was a good board member then thats all that matters? How could you even try to make argument for a nazi on the board. Its not like he doesnt like dogs or hates vegetables. He believes in the views and actions of the Nazi party. Even comparing it to republicans or democrat is ridiculous.
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  #132  
Old 04-18-2018, 02:33 PM
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Given the direction this thread has taken, I feel I have to say up front that the following comments are made tongue in cheek. Cynical and self deprecating humor is something I embrace and enjoy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerookies51 View Post
... however, if hes as young as he says he is, I think he can learn from this and be a good fellow young member of the card collecting community down the road. Id give him another chance
Perhaps he counts his age the same way some Domincan baseball players do when trying to land a professional contract. "Hey, that kid in the Little League World Series has a beard..."

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Originally Posted by Buythatcard View Post
I would love to see a list of eBay buyers who have tried ripping off sellers so that I can block them. I would also love to see the same thing for sellers.
How about a list of eBay buyers who have 100% feedback and never renege on payment?
Wait, perhaps that may be too short a thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
He got in an argument with someone from the Netherlands who explicitly stated that anyone who was racist should be killed. And did so repeatedly. Like round up the racists and get rid of them all
I think it's awful and hateful when people attach stereotypes to a group of individuals...
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  #133  
Old 04-18-2018, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
As for one strike and you are out, I agree if there is fraud where someone is currently financially harmed. If there is no financial harm I am more lenient. But a poll on this one could be interesting.
We (meaning Leon) probably should state that 'on the clubhouse door' along with providing that as part of the information you are provided when asking to join. Anyone caught engaging in fraudulent activities on the board will be banned for life.

Since it's a lifetime ban, membership reinstatement can be considered after one's demise though.
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  #134  
Old 04-18-2018, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stampsfan View Post
Given the direction this thread has taken, I feel I have to say up front that the following comments are made tongue in cheek. Cynical and self deprecating humor is something I embrace and enjoy.


Perhaps he counts his age the same way some Domincan baseball players do when trying to land a professional contract. "Hey, that kid in the Little League World Series has a beard..."


How about a list of eBay buyers who have 100% feedback and never renege on payment?
Wait, perhaps that may be too short a thread.


I think it's awful and hateful when people attach stereotypes to a group of individuals...
Such as Neo-Natzi's, skinheads, KKK etc...?
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  #135  
Old 04-18-2018, 03:43 PM
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Good reason to avoid opinions on the board, thereby requiring your name be out there and subject to background checks 😉
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  #136  
Old 04-18-2018, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobaccoKing4 View Post
Maybe there should be a pinned thread that lists people that have been found to be scamming/committing fraud. This way people know to proceed with caution in dealing with those people in the event that are reinstated on the forum.
I agree 100%; bad trader is a matter of who's opinion you listen too; but out right theft, fraud, blatant deceit, known to sell counterfeits, etc are of primary importance to every member of this board. I would think. As a community I would hope it is in everyone's best interest to protect the member's of the community. Just my 3 cents.
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  #137  
Old 04-18-2018, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
Good reason to avoid opinions on the board, thereby requiring your name be out there and subject to background checks 😉
Btw this person outed himself 9 years ago. Nobody did a background check. One can either choose to believe his story about hanging out on a Nazi website or choose not to believe it.
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  #138  
Old 04-18-2018, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
This just isn't the place for those confirmed members of extremist organizations.
Can we get a list of those extremist organizations? So that we can be on the look out for them, of course.

Most of us probably can agree on some subset of the list, but I bet everyone on the board has a different list. Slippery slope if you ask me.

And I do thank you for the job your doing Leon, this is generally a very well behaved group and I enjoy being a member.
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Last edited by Bigdaddy; 04-18-2018 at 05:50 PM.
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  #139  
Old 04-18-2018, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Such as Neo-Natzi's, skinheads, KKK etc...?
I tried to be funny, exploiting the irony...
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