Question on 1910-12 Sweet Caporal pins

[timfsu2k]

I just picked up a couple of pins from the Sweet Caporal set. This is my first vintage pin purchase, so I am not all that familiar with how condition is judged on pins. I have included a couple of pictures in the hopes that some of you experts can help me out! In my worthless opinion, all three look nice on the front. The Hooper has the worst back of the three. When judging condition, how important is the back of the pin? Thank you in advance.











As for the Williams, I have no idea what set or era this one is from. Any help? Sorry for the blurry pic, the writing on the pin does not look like that, was just hard to get a good clear shot of this one. It is a little larger than the other two. Approximately 1" in diameter.

EDIT: I have been informed that this Williams is a fake. Blah. Live and learn.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Nice P2 duo (particularly your LL Duffy).

To me, back condition matters little, as long as the front is well centered (esp P2s), and free of celluloid breaks/cracks, foxing etc.

I view back paper as a bonus -- and depending on the pin (for me), could command a little bit of a premium if it validates content on a unique piece.

I prefer my P2s to have back paper -- but, won't totally lose sleep if they don't.

In your case, both of your P2s look great (IMHO, the rusty collett on the Hooper is fine).

Your Williams is pretty common. As a novice collector, hold onto it -- I love the 1st few buttons I ever bought, even though I can routinely find them on eBay. Gives me a point of reference for how far along my "addiction" has come

[batsballsbases]

Hello,
Your P2s look fine they are in nice shape but if you do continue to buy always try and get them with the back papers.
Your ted williams is a repro pin. The repros are very blurry and the backs are very shiny. The real ones are more in focus and the back is more oval with a very small circle in the back center. The edge also gets very black as it comes to the curl of the pin and doesnt have the graphics like the real ones,you can see that on my repro and yours.
Good news are they are very common for a real one and they tend to run about 10-20 bucks.. Keep collecting!!!
I put up 2 scans for you repro on right. Backs are a little hard to see but when you have them side by side you can see the difference..
Also putting up these 2 Ted Williams if you ever buy one. Repro on the right. This one is a little easier as the repro his name goes all the way up his shoulder the original has a space. Many people make the mistake when they buy this pin!!

[edhans]

I would respectfully disagree with Aaron's assesment on both counts. The fronts do indeed look great, but P2s, like S74 white silks, should be considered incomplete without the paper backing. I also think the rust or corrosion damage does materially affect the value. Another common problem, which yours do not exhibit, is brown foxing on the celluloid fronts. Nice examples from an interesting set. Enjoy them, regardless of value.

[btcarfagno]

Is it worth it to get pins graded? Monetarily I mean. I just picked up a group of 6 Cracker Jack pins from 1930 and some of them seem to be in terrific shape. Is it worth it to get them graded or should I just sell as is?

Sorry for the thread hijack. Pin threads don't come up too often and I didn't think this warranted a new thread.

Tom C

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by edhans

I would respectfully disagree with Aaron's assesment on both counts. The fronts do indeed look great, but P2s, like S74 white silks, should be considered incomplete without the paper backing. I also think the rust or corrosion damage does materially affect the value. Another common problem, which yours do not exhibit, is brown foxing on the celluloid fronts. Nice examples from an interesting set. Enjoy them, regardless of value.

I to tend to agree with Ed about condition. If you are collecting just for the sake of it than collect what you like. But the old adage still holds true condition is everything.. Stick to ones like your Duffy, no foxing(spots on the front) no cracks in the celluloid (front covering) try and keep away from heavy rusting on the rims as it does tend to bleed into the pin. Back papers intact. For some reason people tend to try and take out the P2 back paper.


Also of note for Tom C. dont try and wipe the cracker jack pins with any water or try and clean them as the ink that was used was water soluble and after a few wipes you will lose the whole front !

[Leon]

Originally Posted by CobbvLajoie1910

Nice P2 duo (particularly your LL Duffy).

To me, back condition matters little, as long as the front is well centered (esp P2s), and free of celluloid breaks/cracks, foxing etc.

I view back paper as a bonus -- and depending on the pin (for me), could command a little bit of a premium if it validates content on a unique piece.

I prefer my P2s to have back paper -- but, won't totally lose sleep if they don't.

In your case, both of your P2s look great (IMHO, the rusty collett on the Hooper is fine).

Your Williams is pretty common. As a novice collector, hold onto it -- I love the 1st few buttons I ever bought, even though I can routinely find them on eBay. Gives me a point of reference for how far along my "addiction" has come

never mind..

To the OP- Nice pins.....it's a great niche to collect!!

[Buythatcard]

I recently came across almost 200 graded Sweet Caporal pins that I am currently selling. I don't know how much weight is put on the back. I have seen several pins graded a 6 with backs that were off centered quite badly. Maybe they don't give qualifiers for pins because I never saw one. For example, look at this PSA 6 example.

[Buythatcard]

Another example of a PSA 6 with a bad insert.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Yeah yeah.

I did preface by saying "to me" (thus implying personal preference) -- and even in my thought, I didn't say it wasn't important to have backpaper, just that it isn't always a deal-breaker (again, for me). Too, and I should've clarified, thats my feeling about pinbacks in general, as opposed to strictly P2s (which are a bit more "card-like").

Yes, Ed and Al are right. Condition definitely matters.

That said, if a raw Large Letter Lajoie or Young came up for auction without paper -- I feel confident in saying the hammer price would be just as competitve (or very negligibly different) than one that had it.

Yes, of course, if you are a high-grade P2 collector, every facet of the pinback matters: face, centering, clarity, backpaper, etc. just a little bit more than a common example. Even if you're not, Ed is right, a P2 is considered "whole" with the paper, and its great to have.

I'm just sayin', in my humblest of opinions, if you asked most pinback collectors, the celluloid's condition/face far outweighs anything that displays on the back, when deciding to pull the trigger on buying a piece.

So, If someone wants to dump their paperless Cobbs, Mattys, and Speakers, give me a call

Al is right, the Duffy is perfect -- congrats on picking up a great piece.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Originally Posted by Leon

never mind..

To the OP- Nice pins.....it's a great niche to collect!!

What did you want to say, Leon?

[timfsu2k]

Thanks for all the insight guys!


As for the Williams, that's a real bummer that it is a fake. Live and learn I suppose.

[Tom Hufford]

Now that someone has opened a thread on the P2 pins, I have a question - how many pins are in the set? Some sources say 204, and some say 205. The difference seems to be in the George Mullin pins. In some sources, the set descriptions say that three players (Bresnahan, Mullin, and Wallace) have three pins, but then the checklist only shows two for Mullin.

I have seen the Mullen (sic) pin, with dark cap and small letters, and a Mullin (correct) pin, with a white cap and large letters.

Some checklists give a third pin for this player, supposedly a Large Letter pin, but I've never been able to determine how his name is spelled (Mullin or Mullen) and what color cap, if any supposed to be on this pin.

Does anyone know if a third Mullin pin actually exists, and if so, what are the details?

I hate thinking about starting work on a set without knowing how many items I would actually be looking for!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Tom Hufford

Now that someone has opened a thread on the P2 pins, I have a question - how many pins are in the set? Some sources say 204, and some say 205. The difference seems to be in the George Mullin pins. In some sources, the set descriptions say that three players (Bresnahan, Mullin, and Wallace) have three pins, but then the checklist only shows two for Mullin.

I have seen the Mullen (sic) pin, with dark cap and small letters, and a Mullin (correct) pin, with a white cap and large letters.

Some checklists give a third pin for this player, supposedly a Large Letter pin, but I've never been able to determine how his name is spelled (Mullin or Mullen) and what color cap, if any supposed to be on this pin.

Does anyone know if a third Mullin pin actually exists, and if so, what are the details?

I hate thinking about starting work on a set without knowing how many items I would actually be looking for!

Hey Tom
Maybe you will have to settle for a less than master set? Just kidding, as a completionist with some things, I hope you find the answer. Good luck!! and a Matty small letters to add to the visuals....



.

[philliesfan]

I just love these pins for some reason. Here are a couple I have. I also have a PSA 9 Tris Speaker......I will try to post that one later.

[jcc6252]

Here's a Cobby with some nice rusting, and one of your Mullin examples (SL Dark), with the paper roached out. Every back seems to have its own character with these guys!

[Buythatcard]

Some Cobbs

[phlflyer1]

Originally Posted by Tom Hufford

Does anyone know if a third Mullin pin actually exists, and if so, what are the details?

Hi Tom,

It has been many years since I've worked on my P2 pin set but the set is complete at 204 pins (unless new variations come to light).

For a few years, a third Mullen pin (White Cap with small letters) had been erroneously listed in the Krause guide but when I discussed it with fellow collectors no one had ever seen it.

Ultimately, a few of us wrote to Bob Lemke at Krause who researched and said that the third variation pin had been added to their catalog at some point but he could not find the evidence or justification for it being added so it was ultimately removed.

So, there is a Mullen (Dark Cap, small letters) and a Mullin (White Cap, large letters).

Regards,

Scott

[philliesfan]

Scott, what are the three pins and flag on the bottom right? Is the one a Mrs. Sherlock bread pin?

Thanks,
Robert

[phlflyer1]

Robert,

Good eye! That is indeed a Mrs. Sherlocks Bread Pin of Mudhens catcher Dennis Murphy. I don't really collect that set but needed something to fill out the display.

The other pins besides the P2s are a Hassan Comics pin, a Sporting Life advertising pin and an old Rutgers college stick pin in honor of my sons first year away at college this fall.

[rjackson44]

Scott as a nj guy stunning wow

[Tom Hufford]

Scott,

Many thanks for the info, that's sorta what I had suspected. Glad you could confirm that there are only two Mullin/Mullen pins in the set - that should make putting the set together much easier

Tom

[Leon]

Scott M.....thanks for sharing info. It is appreciated very much (beautiful pin display)!!

[phlflyer1]

Thanks all for the nice comments on the pin set.

I don't remember where I got the suggestion to use a butterfly display for the pins, I'm sure it was in an old thread around here somewhere, but I'm glad I took the suggestion as I really like how it displays.

Tom,

Glad to be able to help out a fellow collector when the opportunity presents itself.

TBob (Hi Bob if you're reading this) and I were confounded by that supposed third Mullen pin for a long while before finally questioning the checklists.

Happy to spare you and other P2 collectors from the same frustration we experienced!

Regards,

Scott