Yet Another T206 Sheet Size Discussion

[tedzan]

I wouldn't get too carried away with your "34 card sheet" myth.

Bob Revelle had a 26-12 season in 1908, and 29-11 season in 1909 pitching for the Richmond Colts.

Therefore, ALC most likely Double-Printed him.

Over 35 years of collecting T206's, I have seen more Revelle's with OLD MILL and HINDU than most of the other SL guys.

Furthermore, I know of at least one other candidate in the group of 34 that would also qualify as a Double-Print......perhaps Shaughnessy ?

Therefore my friend, we are talking about a 36-card sheet comprising of the 34 SL subjects and two Double-Prints (Revelle & Shaughnessy).



TED Z
.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by atx840

You know what they put on popcorn in Canada instead of butter? Cheescurds & gravy. I've seen 'em do it, man. They drown 'em in that stuff.

Ugh...that's quite disgusting. Is that a product of Canada?

[mrvster]

my bb stephens showing a pink background to the right.....McIntyre?? downs?? from print group 2??

Erick, i'll send a better scan via email

[mrvster]

Chris b will elaborate on the yellow browns?? 460 F#30

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by mrvster

my bb stephens showing a pink background to the right.....McIntyre?? downs?? from print group 2??

Erick, i'll send a better scan via email

probably won't be able to figure it out. Too many possibilities.. could be McIntyre or Downs; possibly Oberlin or O'Neil.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I wouldn't get too carried away with your "34 card sheet" myth.

Bob Revelle had a 26-12 season in 1908, and 29-11 season in 1909 pitching for the Richmond Colts.

Therefore, ALC most likely Double-Printed him.

Over 35 years of collecting T206's, I have seen more Revelle's with OLD MILL and HINDU than most of the other SL guys.

Furthermore, I know of at least one other candidate in the group of 34 that would also qualify as a Double-Print......perhaps Shaughnessy ?

Therefore my friend, we are talking about a 36-card sheet comprising of the 34 SL subjects and two Double-Prints (Revelle & Shaughnessy).



TED Z
.

Chris was asserting that the "14 Group" (non-Hindu) appeared in pop reports at a frequency roughly twice that of the "34 Group" (Hindu).

Ted suggests that two of the Hindu group were double printed.

If that were the case, then 16 cards (all 14 non-Hindu plus the two double-printed Hindu) would occur with twice the frequency of the remaining 32. Within the Hindu group, is there data to support that any of them appear at a 2-to-1 frequency to the others?

[tedzan]

Bob Revelle and Frank Shaughnessy show up with more HINDU backs than the other 32 - SL guys.
Both on Ebay listings and in POP reports.

The above observation....and, the experience of my 35 years collecting & selling T206's suggests
to me that these two SL subjects were Double-Printed.


TED Z

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Bob Revelle and Frank Shaughnessy show up with more HINDU backs than the other 32 - SL guys.
Both on Ebay listings and in POP reports.

The above observation....and, the experience of my 35 years collecting & selling T206's suggests
to me that these two SL subjects were Double-Printed.


TED Z

Chris' assertion was based on Piedmont backs... not Hindu backs.

I used the terms "Hindu" and "Non-Hindu" just to separate the group of 34 from the group of 14. The question at hand relates just to Piedmont 350 which is obviously a much larger sample size. With small sample sizes, resubmission of the same card can greatly affect these ratios.

Question edited:
If that were the case, then 16 cards (all 14 non-Hindu plus the two double-printed Hindu) would occur with twice the frequency of the remaining 32. Within the Hindu group, is there data to support that any of them appear at a 2-to-1 frequency in the Piedmont 350 printing to the non-Hindu group?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Chris was asserting that the "14 Group" (non-Hindu) appeared in pop reports at a frequency roughly twice that of the "34 Group" (Hindu).

Ted suggests that two of the Hindu group were double printed.

If that were the case, then 16 cards (all 14 non-Hindu plus the two double-printed Hindu) would occur with twice the frequency of the remaining 32. Within the Hindu group, is there data to support that any of them appear at a 2-to-1 frequency to the others?

Here's the Hindu numbers from SGC, It's hard to draw a solid conclusion from a small sample. And the numbers could of course be off because of resubs.

Another thing to consider is that in general the more popular cards - Known tough cards and HOF ers are typically around twice as likely to be graded.

bay 9
Bernhard 6
Breitenstine 10
carey 4 *
coles 10
cranston 8
ellam 10
foster 6
fritz 9
greminger 10


guiheen 8
helm 9
hickman 8
Hooker 5 *
Howard 7
Jordan 9
kiernan 8
lafitte 6
lipe 8
manion 12

mc cauley 6
molesworth 10
mullaney 8
otey 7
paige 5 *
perdue 8
persons 5 *
reagan 7
revelle 13
Ryan 8

Shaughnessy 15
smith 5 *
thornton 6
violat 3 *

There are a few I'd think might be shortprints, I marked any with less than 6 - Purely arbitrary, but there are six of them. Also six with 6-7. Of the remaining 22 only Shaughnessy, Manion and Revelle have more than 10. Shaughnessy is popular, so there may be some effect there. Double puts him at 7-8 a bit less puts it closer to 10.

So it's a group of 34, with two fairly consistent groups of 6 and probably two double prints Revelle and Manion. Shaughnessy I think is popular enough that the numbers are skewed

That's nice example of a group where I can't justify either the 12 or 17 theory. Both sort of fit, but neither is a really good fit. If it's 17 there's a bit of stretch to explain the imbalance. If it's 6 or 12, there's four leftover any way you figure it. But only 2 or three double prints. Which doesn't fit either.


Steve B

[atx840]

PSA numbers for OM/Pied, sorted by Hindu pop (PSA + SGC)

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Chris' assertion was based on Piedmont backs... not Hindu backs.

I used the terms "Hindu" and "Non-Hindu" just to separate the group of 34 from the group of 14. The question at hand relates just to Piedmont 350 which is obviously a much larger sample size. With small sample sizes, resubmission of the same card can greatly affect these ratios.

Question edited:
If that were the case, then 16 cards (all 14 non-Hindu plus the two double-printed Hindu) would occur with twice the frequency of the remaining 32. Within the Hindu group, is there data to support that any of them appear at a 2-to-1 frequency in the Piedmont 350 printing to the non-Hindu group?

I'm guessing you missed (or ignored) my post (below) in response to Chris' post regarding PIEDMONT vs OLD MILL SL's.

Please read it, before you jump to any more conclusions regarding what I am saying (or thinking).

Originally Posted by tedzan

In 2006, when I was working on my all-PIEDMONT set, among the last few cards I needed to complete it were a good number of the group of 34 - SL guys.

So, there you are....some empirical data to support your observation on this subject of PIEDMONT vs OLD MILL SL's.



TED Z

TED Z

[t206hound]

It's quite possible that I missed something in the thread, Ted... so please forgive me. I miss stuff all the time... I tend to be one who learns through mistakes.

I think I've got this right, but let me know where I don't:

• For the Hindu southern leaguers, 2 of the players were double printed yielding a sheet size of 36. This explains the population/observation of two players occurring more often (Revelle/Shaugnessy).
• You've observed that within the Old Mills, Revelle occurs more frequently than the other SLs indicating that he (and another) were double printed
• You've observed in your collecting an all Piedmont set that the group of 34 were tougher to obtain in Piedmont than other cards in the series (presumably more so than those in the group of 14). Pop reports from PSA/SGC support this.
• There's no correlation between the Piedmont sheet layouts and their OM/Hindu counterparts. (I'm inferring this, so let me know if I'm wrong)

Thanks... I'm just trying to learn what I can.

[tedzan]

I just got in from playing 2 hours of Tennis (singles), so I'm now going to read your latest post.

Yes, I think you summarzed all the events quite right.

Incidently, this "trifecta" of the various printing phases of the Southern Leaguers (HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT 350)
is a pattern that Scot Reader explored in his 2005 edition of "Inside T206".


TED Z

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Incidently, this "trifecta" of the various printing phases of the Southern Leaguers (HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT 350)

is a pattern that Scot Reader explored in his 2005 edition of "Inside T206".





TED Z

Do you think that the 34 player layout (with 2 double prints) with Hindu was "reused" for old mill? And then what would the layout be for the non-Hindu player sheet with the old mill back?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by steve B

Not quite. They would get higher yield from larger sheets. The press can only make so many impressions an hour back then typically 800-1000 for a sheet fed press.

Steve B

Now, this is very interesting ^^^^ and I'm also glad the Obak sheet is being talked about.

I think it is very important to be open minded about the sheet layout and not get pigeon holed into focusing on a "certain sized" track, when we already know they were using multiple sized presses. The Obak sheet shows us that the print quality on this larger sheet was not sacrificed by using a larger sheet. And, for now, that Obak sheet is the closest thing we have to study.

Great discussion! I love threads like this.

Jantz- great observation!

Chris- Great input with the yellow-brown scraps, I think those are an excellent clue.

Erick- great questions, you are better with words than I am.

Steve- always fun to read your information, thanks!

Everyone else- thanks for the input! I didn't start this thread but I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through it.


Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

PSA numbers for OM/Pied, sorted by Hindu pop (PSA + SGC)

Great work here, guy. Of course I like the numbers on your tally since they tend to support my contention that Revelle was probably Double-Printed (D-P) in order to fit
the 34 subjects onto a 36-card sheet.

And my 2nd subject, Shaughnessy, may be the other D-P. Since his numbers indicate that there is a high probability that he was D-P. But, as you know, POP report #'s
can be misleading. And, with respect to Shaughnessy, I hesitate to be as certain that he was D-P as I am with Revelle.

I say this because I consider Frank Shaughnessy the "star" of the entire group of the 48 - Southern Leaguers. Frank is in three Canadian HOFs, former President of the
International League (1936-1960), and was a very popular Manager and Coach. Therefore, he has a very large following amongst many collectors....which can skew his
POP report #'s.

So, if not Shaughnessy, perhaps either Fritz or Manion were the 2nd D-P subject. In any event, I feel confident in my theory that the HINDU and OLD MILL press runs of
the 34 - SL subjects were printed on 36-card (or 72 card) sheets.


Take care good buddy......and, keep looking for that red HINDU Sheckard for my Exclusive 12 sub-set.


TED Z
.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I feel confident in my theory that the HINDU and OLD MILL press runs of the 34 - SL subjects were printed on 36-card (or 72 card) sheets.

And how would the remaining 14 cards on Old Mill have been printed?

[t206hound]

I wanted to bump this once more to get Ted's thoughts on the Old Mill sheet layout of the remaining 14 players...

[tedzan]

Timelines of certain So. Lgrs. (Rockenfeld, both Hart's, Lentz, and some of the Texas Lge. guys) suggests that early in 1910, ALC most likely printed
all 48 - So. Lge. subjects with their OLD MILL backs on a 48-card (or 96-card) sheet.


TED Z

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Timelines of certain So. Lgrs. (Rockenfeld, both Hart's, Lentz, and some of the Texas Lge. guys) suggests that early in 1910, ALC most likely printed
all 48 - So. Lge. subjects with their OLD MILL backs on a 48-card (or 96-card) sheet.


TED Z

So two runs of Southern League Old Mill backs?

• the first with the 34 grouping (from Hindu) with two double prints;
• and then the second with all 48 players as single prints