t206 with no name

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

they dont even want to see the scan...they just wont label it no name.

I know nothing about grading so this might be a dumb question but what difference does having it labeled "No Name" make as long as it gets a # grade? It would be obvious by looking at the card that it has no name.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Well SGC won't grade it...PSA won't grade it...not much point in trying any other TPG!!!

Really? Do you mean they won't grade it at all, or they won't include a "No Name" notation? If they wont grade it at all, I agree with you Pete, what good are they.

[brob28]

Posts crossed, last post question answered. That's not too bad, they give a numerical grade which is their opinion that it's not altered.

[mrvster]

a co. that will do it.....by hobby experts one day

[brob28]

Originally Posted by mrvster

a co. that will do it.....by hobby experts one day

Some may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by mrvster

a co. that will do it.....by hobby experts one day

interesting concept?

[ullmandds]

Any opinions? I cannot post high res scans here.

[HalChaseCollector]

Not an expert like some of these guys but if it is legit than it is a really cool card!

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

they dont even want to see the scan...they just wont label it no name.

Let me offer you another way to spin this sir. Why does the flip need to say "no name"? If it doesn't say "altered" or miscut than wouldn't it support your needs? Cha Ching!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Let me offer you another way to spin this sir. Why does the flip need to say "no name"? If it doesn't say "altered" or miscut than wouldn't it support your needs? Cha Ching!

i totally agree...and here's the thing that dumbfounds me...SGC will not grade this card...period! They will not even grade it Authentic...which I think is absolutely ridiculous! Earl called me...which I greatly appreciated...but he could not give me a solid reason why they would not grade it...other than the fact that most no name cards are not authentic.

Reminds me of Fro Joys...just because there are a lot of fakes...all are punished.

PSA has stated they will not slab it "no name" but I have a feeling they will in fact assign it a grade.

[mrvster]

Hold onto your card.......one day someone will grade it correctly

sgc is awesome, and EARL is prob the best guy out there to deal with!!! I only deal with sgc in this regard.....yes...I have run into this problem with no names......they are apparently "easy" to forge.....but there should be ways to detect this...if not now, then in the future...

[ullmandds]

I hear ya Johny...but if these TPG'ers are supposed to be the "experts" providing assurances to collectors...and they can't even grade properly...what does that say?

[mrvster]

some of these cards are like "yeti"....they are just not understood yet....except by a few obsessed T206 collectors such as myself....

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mrvster

sorry late to the party!!! all tpg are very suspect of missing names.....not sure if sgc even grades then anymore! last one I bought off ebay came back as "erasure" and I returned it....

if this gets a slab it would be a hot card, but that the tuf part....

it has enough real estate to be a true" no name".....which, inmho, needs more than the average space under the border to have received the strike....

in essence, a true no name has to have plenty of bottom border like your card...

I own at least 3 "true no name" but they are all printers scrap and never received the strike(Chance, Abbott, Mcginnley off the top of my head)...a true no name factory cut card are EXTREMELY rare....one of the only ones iv seen is sean's unglaub in the GIA holder AND THE ONE ON t206 MUSEUM.....

if you get it slabbed....JACK POT

Wasn't the name printed in the same pass as other parts of the image? If so, those parts should be missing as well. Are they missing in your scraps?

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Wasn't the name printed in the same pass as other parts of the image? If so, those parts should be missing as well. Are they missing in your scraps?

There are proofs without names: http://t206resource.com/Proofs%20Gallery.html

[mrvster]

it is complicated.....as Erick stated........I own(mcginnley, abbott, chance, and knight)..... 4 separate printers scraps with legit "no names".....some did receive the third stage of brown printing....some did not...really wild!

factory issued T206 "no names" are extremely rare, and extremely hard to prove.....that's why tpg's will not touch them with a 12 foot pole! leaves them up to too much liability....

the truth is, some forgeries with no name T206 are tough to disprove......the only way to determine is: smell it, taste it(yes sounds weird), put the black light on it, measure the caption field, and have it reviewed by the veterans.....even then it will always be suspect unfortunately...


sad for pete, cause his card may actually be the yeti

[Bpm0014]

Agree with Scott. That card is just too "complete" to be just missing the name. Don't get me wrong, I hope it is truly a "no-name", but I wouldn't bet on it. But good luck!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by t206hound

There are proofs without names: http://t206resource.com/Proofs%20Gallery.html

Thanks Erick.

Using the example of the one at the top right, the 'no name' has less brown than the 'with name' to the right of it.

Johnny - thanks for the explanation. Pete's card does appear to be 'too complete', as the previous poster noted, but to me this should be simple to figure out. Get a high-power magnifier and check out the area - there will almost certainly be evidence, or lack thereof.

Cycleback - thoughts?

[drcy]

I don't know how they did it with the T206s and haven't looked into it, but in some prints the black text is printed from its own, separate printing plate. I had Topps complete progression proofs for 1970s cards that showed they at least sometimes printed the text from its own printing plate. Progression proofs were a pre-final printing quaiity control series of card sheets, each sheet printed from a different combination of printing plates (yellow/blue plates, magenta/yellow plates, just yellow, just blue, just black, etc). Printers did this to make sure the printing aligned and the colors looked right before printing off the 10,000 or whatever finished cards. The proofs clearly showed the individual plates they used and, at least for the proofs I had, the front black text came from its own printing plate-- even separate from the other black parts (black outline around player's picture and black details in picture). One proof would have all the colors, including black, but wouldn't have the text. Another proof would have just the black border design and black details in the player's picture, again without the text. So the idea that just the text can legitimately be missing from a card is theoretically possible.

[steve B]

I'd like to see the high res scans. Too bad they're limited here.
I do think that card has enough lower border to have a shot at being real. A really close examination of that area should show if there's anything odd about the surface.

Interestingly, over in the postwar side one of the guys has demonstrated selectively fading a card with a method that leaves no obvious traces . It makes me wonder if it's possible with the brown on a T206 as it's dependent on the ink. Some fade more easily than others. From the sun faded cards I have I'd think not.

This is as close as I've come to a no name. Combination of a miscut and a downward shift of the brown that made the caption low enough to be "missing". It's actually there, but just the barest hint of the tops of two letters.



Steve B

[Runscott]

If it simply faded, would residue show up under a backlight? I know this is true of old baseball bats where there are no obvious remains of the original signature.

[drcy]

I don't know how just the name would fade away and everything else looks fine. However, infrared viewers are used to read badly faded ink. Archeologists use them to read ancient documents where the writing has faded to unreadability or even invisibility under daylight. But it's a hit or miss proposition. It either works or it doesn't, all depending on the chemical makeup of the ink. Though it did work for me on badly faded and unreadable side writing on a 1920s baseball bat. I took an infrared photo and was clearly able to read it. I still have the photo. I have an infrared camera, but would have to find the batteries

Police forensic experts use special viewers that view things using all sorts of lenses, lights and filters-- black light, infrared, different colors, polarization--, all in the name of discovering otherwise invisible details and minute objects. An expert would look at it through the spectrum of lights to see if something appears, and if there is something it likely would. That's how they find minute hairs and droplets of saliva at a crime scene.

[Runscott]

infrared, black, yellow, white - they are all lights.

We shall see, David.

[drcy]

One of many things thing to do is to make sure the overall gloss and blacklight fluorescence is the same as on other T206s. There was a case of an altered T206 variation (one of those missing letter on the uniform variations) where the forger coated the front in a clear varnish-like substance to try and mask his handiwork. Ironically, what gave it away as altered was the buyer noticed that the card front was glossier than on his other T206s.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'd like to see the high res scans. Too bad they're limited here.
I do think that card has enough lower border to have a shot at being real. A really close examination of that area should show if there's anything odd about the surface.

Interestingly, over in the postwar side one of the guys has demonstrated selectively fading a card with a method that leaves no obvious traces . It makes me wonder if it's possible with the brown on a T206 as it's dependent on the ink. Some fade more easily than others. From the sun faded cards I have I'd think not.

This is as close as I've come to a no name. Combination of a miscut and a downward shift of the brown that made the caption low enough to be "missing". It's actually there, but just the barest hint of the tops of two letters.



Steve B

Peter was nice enough to send me a high res. scan. To me the bottom border seems cleaner/whiter overall than the rest of the card. I have no opinion on it being altered as I collected t206's for a few months and did not really care for them so I did no research on alterations.

In hand a good top lighted microscope would probably tell you. Besides black lights I have found the CFL lights will also make some alterations stick out like a sore thumb when the card is held close to the light and tipped.

[ullmandds]

Ben... Thank you for your opinion. Card is on the way to Seattle for forensic evaluation.

[Jantz]

Here is another

[ullmandds]

personally...I believe that comparing vertical miscuts where there is very little bottom border...no names...to normally cut cards with large bottom borders with no names to be like comparing apples to oranges.

Time will tell if my card is legit or not...either way...the truth should be known.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

personally...I believe that comparing vertical miscuts where there is very little bottom border...no names...to normally cut cards with large bottom borders with no names to be like comparing apples to oranges.

I posted the Schmidt because of its full border. I didn't do the side-by-side. It just happen to be listed that way in the original scan that I borrowed. The Ebay seller had them scanned together a few years back in his/her auction.


Jantz

[ullmandds]

that's cool jantz...the schmidt is an apple!!!! but others are posting oranges...which I believe are very different.

[drcy]

For the record, I'm no trading card alterations expert, at least compared to anyone else on this board. My forte is authentication, not looking to see if a Kobe Byrant rookie card has trimmed edges or scanning 1985 Topps Roger Clemens for erasure marks. I've never had any desire to be a baseball card grader-- sounds about as inspiring as being an accountant. However, I'm not ignorant on the issue, and alteration detection can be a part of authentication. And I have the scientific equipment, including an infrared camera and digital microscope that can record microscopic photos and even video onto my laptop. At the least, I can post forensic photos to the board for others to see and critique. Apparently, Peter is sending the card to a board member who lives near me and I will eventually have a peak.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

that's cool jantz...the schmidt is an apple!!!! but others are posting oranges...which I believe are very different.

Peter has never been one to call a spade a shovel.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Peter has never been one to call a spade a shovel.

i would call a spade a type of shovel!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jantz

I posted the Schmidt because of its full border. I didn't do the side-by-side. It just happen to be listed that way in the original scan that I borrowed. The Ebay seller had them scanned together a few years back in his/her auction.


Jantz

Did you buy the Schmidt? That one seemed a lot more likely to be a no name. I bid, but not enough. I did get the Barry as you can see from the scans.

Steve B

[MacDice]

[ullmandds]

I would like to offer my thanks to David(Cycleback) and Scott Forrest(http://BelltownVintageCards.com)(runscott) for being kind and generous to evaluate my phillippe no name card.

The card passed the following tests for authenticity: gloss, black light, microscope (including 'raking light'). My card was compared to other T206 examples and no evidence of any letters ever having been present was detected. The imperfections in the border that were revealed by the microscope were all consistent with other examples with similar wear.

This evaluation went way beyond what any of the current TPG'ers currently do in evaluating our beloved cards...and I'd estimate that these techniques will be employed in the future of third party grading...perhaps as an additional level of service prior to slabbing.

Thanks again guys!!!

[drcy]

Raking light simply means light shined at sharp, nearing parallel angle to the surface. Used to reveal surface texture, imperfections.

I'm offering no official opinion on the card as I'm not a grader or alteration expert, just reporting what we saw (or, in this case, didn't see). We looked very closely and in different ways and saw nothing errant. Ordinarily, if the there are alterations it will fail at least one (and usually more than one) of the tests. And I think it would be darned hard to remove the ink without altering the white surface. I have the microscopic photos saved on a computer and said I'd foreword them to Pete. Scott and I were both of the the same opinion-- we saw no signs of alterations, and we were looking at microscopic blow ups of the card on a full computer screen, along with doing the normal tests of black light, looking at gloss in sunlight, comparing to other T206s (same gloss as the other T206s, no area of abnormal gloss), etc. Under the microscope, we looked at the card surface at different angles, including head on, and with different angles of light.

I considered my task to just examine the card objectively, report the scientific details we observed and leave the card theories and opinions to others. I think such a scientific report can be more worthy and reliable when the examiner is sticking to the facts and forgoing personal opinion.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I would like to offer my thanks to David(Cycleback) and Scott Forrest(http://BelltownVintageCards.com)(runscott) for being kind and generous to evaluate my phillippe no name card.

The card passed the following tests for authenticity: gloss, black light, microscope (including 'raking light'). My card was compared to other T206 examples and no evidence of any letters ever having been present was detected. The imperfections in the border that were revealed by the microscope were all consistent with other examples with similar wear.

This evaluation went way beyond what any of the current TPG'ers currently do in evaluating our beloved cards...and I'd estimate that these techniques will be employed in the future of third party grading...perhaps as an additional level of service prior to slabbing.

Thanks again guys!!!

Pete, if you attach these findings to your (encapsulated) card you shouldn't have a problem getting a nice return on your investment.

Originally Posted by drcy

Raking light simply means light shined at sharp, nearing parallel angle to the surface. Used to reveal surface texture, imperfections.

I'm offering no official opinion on the card as I'm not a grader or alteration expert, just reporting what we saw (or, in this case, didn't see). We looked very closely and in different ways and saw nothing errant. Ordinarily, if the there are alterations it will fail at least one (and usually more than one) of the tests. And I think it would be darned hard to remove the ink without altering the white surface. I have the microscopic photos saved on a computer and said I'd foreword them to Pete. Scott and I were both of the the same opinion-- we saw no signs of alterations, and we were looking at microscopic blow ups of the card on a full computer screen, along with doing the normal tests of black light, looking at gloss in sunlight, comparing to other T206s (same gloss as the other T206s, no area of abnormal gloss), etc. Under the microscope, we looked at the card surface at different angles, including head on, and with different angles of light.

I considered my task to just examine the card objectively, report the scientific details we observed and leave the card theories and opinions to others. I think such a scientific report can be more worthy and reliable when the examiner is sticking to the facts and forgoing personal opinion.

That's very nice work. I'm sure that the board would like to see these images.

Also, I look forward to future installments in your series of articles on antique printing processes on Sports Collectors Daily.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Pete, if you attach these findings to your (encapsulated) card you shouldn't have a problem getting a nice return on your investment.



That's very nice work. I'm sure that the board would like to see these images.

Also, I look forward to future installments in your series of articles on antique printing processes on Sports Collectors Daily.

problem is SGC will not encapsulate it!

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

problem is SGC will not encapsulate it!

PSA will though, right?

[ullmandds]

Dunno...I don't really like PSA!

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Dunno...I don't really like PSA!

...but you don't really like t206 either, right? So it seems fitting to put your lone t206 in a psa holder.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

...but you don't really like t206 either, right? So it seems fitting to put your lone t206 in a psa holder.

ha ha...good point!!! And BTW...I have maybe 12-14 t206...only 1 of which is graded.

[Pat R]

Pete, If you Decide to sell any of your T206's I would be interested in
purchasing one just so I can say I bought it off you. I might even have it
slabbed "from the Ull.man collection".

Patrick

[Runscott]

Just wanted to add the following:

What David said.

[mrvster]

a tpg would grade this someday

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Pete, If you Decide to sell any of your T206's I would be interested in
purchasing one just so I can say I bought it off you. I might even have it
slabbed "from the Ull.man collection".

Patrick

funny Patrick...I'll let you know when the time comes!!!! This no name can be yours if...the price is right!!

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

...This no name can be yours if...the price is right!!

You must work 'on call'

[Jantz]

Forget about the no namers.

I'm holding out for this one!

[ullmandds]

awesome jantz...the story goes that my great grandfather was offered a baseball contract...but his mom wouldn't let him play because baseball was for bums. had she...there may have been an ullman t206...for real...and I would be likely hoarding them!!!!!