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  #1  
Old 09-09-2019, 04:25 PM
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Default 1949 Bowman Duke Snider Rookie

This gorgeous PSA 7 went for $1499 USD!



A PSA 6 went for $960 USD.

Duke was UP THERE with guys like Mantle and Mays, so why is his rookie so cheap? Is there something I'm missing?
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  #2  
Old 09-09-2019, 04:28 PM
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It seems to be heating up. Maybe he’s getting some hobby respect lately.
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:31 PM
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Great 10 year run (most HRs in the 50s decade I believe)
He was overshadowed by Jackie, Roy, Gil and did not have the wow factor of Mantle or Mays and didn't come close to the 500 HR club.


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Old 09-09-2019, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal View Post
Great 10 year run (most HRs in the 50s decade I believe)
He was overshadowed by Jackie, Roy, Gil and did not have the wow factor of Mantle or Mays and didn't come close to the 500 HR club.


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Yet another guy who was Biggio, eh?
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
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Yet another guy who was Biggio, eh?
Biggio was better

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Old 09-09-2019, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal View Post
Great 10 year run (most HRs in the 50s decade I believe)
He was overshadowed by Jackie, Roy, Gil and did not have the wow factor of Mantle or Mays and didn't come close to the 500 HR club.


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Who had the most HR of the 1970s? Most people get this wrong.
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
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Who had the most HR of the 1970s? Most people get this wrong.
Foster or stargell?

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  #8  
Old 09-09-2019, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
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Foster?

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Not even in the top 10.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:01 PM
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Stargell is the man. Most people will guess Reggie or Bench.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:01 PM
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Personally I think Snider was overrated. He was always associated as Willie Mickey and the Duke but he wasn’t on their level.

I would think most 70s HRs is Reggie.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:06 PM
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Not sure how highly rated he really was. He didn't make the Hall until 1980, 16 years after he retired.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:16 PM
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Snider, from Baseball Reference. He was hurt hugely with the move to the LA Coliseum but his stats hold up for the HOF>


Black Ink
Batting - 28 (66), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 183 (53), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 152 (89), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 47 (103), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Center Field (8th):
66.3 career WAR / 49.9 7yr-peak WAR / 58.1 JAWS
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.1 career WAR / 44.5 7yr-peak WAR / 57.8 JAWS
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  #13  
Old 09-09-2019, 08:27 PM
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Mays is easily one of the top 10 players in MLB history. Mantle is somewhere in the top 25. I don't think Snider should be considered one of the top 100.

Also, 1949 Bowman is particularly ugly, and 1951 Bowman particularly beautiful.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:31 PM
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This is my favorite Snider, also like the 53BC but don't own one.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg snider.jpg (78.8 KB, 516 views)
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  #15  
Old 09-09-2019, 08:39 PM
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He was in an episode of Father Knows Best.
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  #16  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:16 PM
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.919 OPS should be a shoo-in for the HOF if you had a significant length career.

If you throw out the roid-heads and the guys from the ridiculous homer happy era we're in now it's even more impressive. Including everyone it is STILL 48th of all time and while he wasn't the greatest center fielder of all time he did have a great arm and racked up a lot of outfield assists. 6 top 10 MVP finishes. If anything he's underrated.
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  #17  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:12 AM
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Snider is certainly worthy of the Hall, but he's not iconic like Mantle, Mays, or Aaron, or Jackie and a few others.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:50 AM
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First thing that struck me seeing how short that card is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C58ttB2-Qg
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  #19  
Old 09-10-2019, 11:11 AM
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+1....just spoke to someone who collected them out of packs. He says left border should be a little rough factory cut and that top....well, most of the top

Around half of the high grade ones on ebay look to be trimmed. (smooth left border)



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First thing that struck me seeing how short that card is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C58ttB2-Qg
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  #20  
Old 09-10-2019, 11:30 AM
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Snider was hurt by playing in the same town as two of the ATGs at the same time and position, plus a Dodgers team that was both historic and loaded with talent. I mean, anyone short of Aaron, Williams or Musial is going to fall short of Willie and Mickey. He was also not the most charismatic or outgoing guy and was plagued with self-doubts, which the writers picked up on (read The Boys of Summer; has some interesting reflections on Snider).

That '57 is beautiful.
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  #21  
Old 09-10-2019, 02:30 PM
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Better question: in what world is he up there with Mantle and Mays? His numbers are identical to those of Mike Piazza and he certainly doesn’t have the panache of the players you mentioned.
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  #22  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:03 PM
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Default Duke Snider rookie

Hi samosa4u

I cannot tell for sure, but it appears that your Snider rookie card has a "sharp" left border ?

If so, then this card was tampered with. Every 1949 BOWMAN Snider has a "rough cut" on
its left border since it was situated at the leftmost end of its printed 36-card sheet (see the
simulated sheet shown below).

Here is an example of what I am describing...…..
…………………. V….rough cut border







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  #23  
Old 09-10-2019, 05:51 PM
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Ted, please give us some insight to why the position of the card on the sheet lends itself to a rough cut.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCRfan1 View Post
Ted, please give us some insight to why the position of the card on the sheet lends itself to a rough cut.

Hi Lou

Bowman cards were printed by Zabel Bros. Printers (in Philly). They employed 38" track (4-color process) printing presses to produce their small size (1948 - 1952) BB and FB cards.
Each press run produced a 72-card sheet. Two 36-card formats were printed (inverted with respect to each other) on a 38-inch wide cardboard sheet (see sheet scan below).

The first cut of the 72-card sheet was done to separate the two 36-card arrangements. This first cut was a "rough" cut relative to the subsequent "sharp" cuts of the individual cards.

This first cut resulted in the cards in the middle of this sheet [Pieretti, Snider, Russell, and Mize (name on front)] having a rough left border.






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Last edited by tedzan; 09-10-2019 at 10:52 PM. Reason: Scan modified.
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  #25  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:24 PM
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Thank you for your posts everyone!

I knew this topic did not belong in the prewar section, but I still decided to post it here because I thought it'll get more attention (since everybody hangs out here).

There was a time in New York when people would ask "who is your favorite - Duke, Mays or Mantle?" I just assumed he was on their level then. I did not know that his career went to hell when his team moved to California. I just read now that when Duke played his first home opener in Cali, Mays pointed at the right field wall and told him that he was effed! It looks like the right field wall in Brooklyn was short.

Now I don't own a Duke Snider rookie (although I would like to!) I just posted that PSA 7 because I thought it looked beautiful and was surprised how cheap it sold for.

If what Leon said is true, then that's very bad! Why do we even have card grading in the first place when these guys have no clue what the eff they are doing?
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:30 PM
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Well he also got injured at age 31 going from 5 consecutive 40 home run seasons to only breaking 20 one more time in his career, and he never played a full season again after that, and not at the level he had previously enjoyed. When you don't top 400 AB's in a season for half your career it does put a damper on your numbers. In his prime I don't think the comparison to Mantle and Mays was as egregious as it is now, looking back at their careers in total. He had three years with an OPS of over 1.000 and a 4th at .997 before he got hurt. the number of guys who have done that is pretty small. Again his career .900+ ops is pretty damn rare and was only drug down that far by him being a shadow of his former self, but where it really hurt him is in the counting numbers.
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:24 PM
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Default Duke Snider

First, I will start with this: twice I've met the Duke, got his autograph, and had some nice conversations with him.
He was a real classy guy, very friendly, and a true gentleman.

OK, let's talk numbers..........comparing Mickey, Willie, and the Duke

Regular season Stats:

BA = .295 to .302 (not much difference between them)

SLG = .540 to .557

OPS = .919 to .977

Individual World Series Stats:

Snider.....BA = .286, SLG = .594, OPS = .945

Mantle....BA = .257, SLG = .535, OPS = .908

Mays...….BA = .247, SLG = .337, OPS = .660


Therefore, you guys, that have been slighting Snider in your comments here, are totally uninformed. And, I will tell
you what is real....I followed Snider's career from 1949 to 1957 while he played in Brooklyn.

The Duke averaged 110 RBI's per year for those 9 years. Batted .306, and his OPS average = .966

You had to see him play the game to really appreciate him.

P.S.….Snider graduated from Compton H.S. in California. He excelled in all sports, and especially Football.
Stay tuned for my great story regarding his FB feat.

By the way, guys....I'm a Yankees fan. But, having seen the Duke play all those years, I have a deep respect for him.


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  #28  
Old 09-11-2019, 05:06 PM
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I like using the WAR stat which takes all aspects of a player’s game and puts it into a number

Mays 156.4 (5th all time)
Mantle 110.3 (20th all time)
Snider 66.4 (131 all time)

You can isolate a stat or two and show that he somehow compares to the others. But he doesn’t. Sniders lifetime stats are most comparable to those of Jim Edmonds (60.4 WAR). Snider is a HOF player all the way. But Mantle and Mays are upper echelon elite players.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:17 PM
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Bill James (among others) has written how the "I saw him play" argument is among the most often used yet one of the most fallible endorsements a person can make on behalf of a player. We all do it, but it really has no place in trying to identify the best player within a group of players.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
I like using the WAR stat which takes all aspects of a player’s game and puts it into a number

Mays 156.4 (5th all time)
Mantle 110.3 (20th all time)
Snider 66.4 (131 all time)

You can isolate a stat or two and show that he somehow compares to the others. But he doesn’t. Sniders lifetime stats are most comparable to those of Jim Edmonds (60.4 WAR). Snider is a HOF player all the way. But Mantle and Mays are upper echelon elite players.
Again though, at his peak he was elite 9.3, 8.3, 8.6, 7.6 even if he becomes a 5 WAR guy until he's 35 that alters his career numbers enormously including roughly 20 points to his career WAR. Don't get me wrong even at 86.4 he's not Mantle or Mays, but he's definitely looked upon differently. His health really was his limiting factor. He had 407 career home runs. 316 by age 30. 91 after. 316 Home runs by age 30 puts you in pretty special company.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:32 PM
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In my opinion, Snider is a definite notch below if you consider only the 50s and not really in the same discussion if you consider the whole career, as he did next to nothing in the 60s and was gone by 1964. Still, a mid tier HOFer.
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  #32  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:50 PM
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Default Duke Snider

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
I like using the WAR stat which takes all aspects of a player’s game and puts it into a number

Mays 156.4 (5th all time)
Mantle 110.3 (20th all time)
Snider 66.4 (131 all time)

You can isolate a stat or two and show that he somehow compares to the others. But he doesn’t. Sniders lifetime stats are most comparable to those of Jim Edmonds (60.4 WAR). Snider is a HOF player all the way. But Mantle and Mays are upper echelon elite players.
You like to use WAR (or is it actually a new-speak term called "war-p") which at best is only an approximation of available data which is made up of imprecise assumptions.

I choose OPS as a more meaningful stat to gauge a ballplayer's offensive worth to his team. Because that's what WINS games.

Mays' OPS # is .941 and Snider's OPS # is .919; however, Snider's value to the Dodgers during the regular seasons (1949 - 1959) was amazing. Especially in World Series
play where Snider's numbers are significantly greater than Mays' numbers in World Series play.

Incidentally, you'll get no arguments from me regarding Mickey Mantle. I grew up seeing him play (watching TV and live at Yankee Stadium). Mickey was my idol.


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Last edited by tedzan; 09-11-2019 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #33  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:35 PM
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It’s interesting that you won’t argue Mantle vs Duke but have plenty of argument for Willie vs Duke. Willie was clearly the best of the 3. Some would argue that Mays was the greatest player of all time with his defense taken into the equation - and is in most people’s top 3.

No disrespect to the career and legacy of Duke Snider who is a well deserved HOF member. But he’s not in the same class as the others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
You like to use WAR (or is it actually a new-speak term called "war-p") which at best is only an approximation of available data which is made up of imprecise assumptions.

I choose OPS as a more meaningful stat to gauge a ballplayer's offensive worth to his team. Because that's what WINS games.

Mays' OPS # is .941 and Snider's OPS # is .919; however, Snider's value to the Dodgers during the regular seasons (1949 - 1959) was amazing. Especially in World Series
play where Snider's numbers are significantly greater than Mays' numbers in World Series play.

Incidentally, you'll get no arguments from me regarding Mickey Mantle. I grew up seeing him play (watching TV and live at Yankee Stadium). Mickey was my idol.


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Old 09-11-2019, 07:41 PM
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I can't see ranking Mays any lower than 5th. Mantle is an interesting case depending on how much you value his phenomenal on base percentage due to walks, but he is obviously a top 20 player if not significantly higher. Snider, I can't see higher than maybe 50-60.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:52 PM
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I think, as his career shook out, Snider is right around 50th (His OPS is 48th, and that's behind a number of roid users) My point is as the three of them were in center field in NY at the same time in the mid 50's "Who is best" was a much more valid question then, than it is in retrospect today.
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  #36  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:55 PM
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Default Willie, Mickey, or the Duke.... ?

Continuing to discuss this matter any further is futile, for I cannot relate with people who never saw Willie, Mickey, or the Duke play Baseball in the 1950's.
One thing nice about growing older, your mind starts reverting back to your youth and Baseball in the 1950's becomes very clear in my mind. Especially, if
you grew up in the greater NY - NJ area.

So, I leave you with some thing to think about......some thing intangible that "stands out" which Mickey Mantle and Carl Yastrzemski have achieved that no
other BB players in modern history have achieved. These two ballplayers directly "stepped" into the footprints of two tremendous ballplayers (Joe DiMaggio
and Ted Williams) and succeeded tremendously. This is an extremely rare occurrence in the history of this game. I cannot think of any other BB player who
has achieved this to the degree that Mickey and Carl did.

Think about this, let it sink into your minds....it's an awesome accomplishment which is unique to these two guys.

Good night,


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Old 09-11-2019, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Continuing to discuss this matter any further is futile, for I cannot relate with people who never saw Willie, Mickey, or the Duke play Baseball in the 1950's.
One thing nice about growing older, your mind starts reverting back to your youth and Baseball in the 1950's becomes very clear in my mind. Especially, if
you grew up in the greater NY - NJ area.

So, I leave you with some thing to think about......some thing intangible that "stands out" which Mickey Mantle and Carl Yastrzemski have achieved that no
other BB players in modern history have achieved. These two ballplayers directly "stepped" into the footprints of two tremendous ballplayers (Joe DiMaggio
and Ted Williams) and succeeded tremendously. This is an extremely rare occurrence in the history of this game. I cannot think of any other BB player who
has achieved this to the degree that Mickey and Carl did.

Think about this, let it sink into your minds....it's an awesome accomplishment which is unique to these two guys.

Good night,


TED Z

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Not to one up you Ted, but I always thought that the unbroken chain of Leftfielders in Boston from Williams to Yaz to Rice was pretty ridiculous. 3 HOF'ers at the same position in a row, spanning 50 years these three must've started 90% of the games in LF for the Sox.
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  #38  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:34 PM
Mike D. Mike D. is online now
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Aren't two different questions being asked, with (potentially) two different answers?

1. Was Duke Snider's career as great/valuable as Mantle and Mays?

and

2. Was Duke Snider as good at Mantle and Mays at their respective peaks?

The answer to #1 is clearly "no", based on longevity...but #2 is a different question with an answer that's at least debatable, I'd think.
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  #39  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:01 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Duke Snider

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P.S.….Snider graduated from Compton H.S. in California. He excelled in all sports, and especially Football.

Stay tuned for my great story regarding his FB feat.

.

One more say....and then I'll go away.

This story will be appreciated by the few Duke Snider fans on this thread.

I am sure some of you remember Pete Rozelle, NFL Commissioner (1960 - 1989). Rozelle and Snider were classmates at Compton High School in the early 1940's.

Circa 1970's, a Sports reporter was "stunned" by Pete Rozelle's answer when he asked him….. "what was the most exciting play that he had seen in all his years in
Football ?"

Pete smiled and he replied...."In 1944, his High School was playing for the Championship, and with less than 10 seconds left in the game, Duke Snider (QB) threw
a perfect 63-yard pass to his receiver to win the game and Compton High School won the Championship that year."

Can you imagine.....an 18-year old throwing a FB approx. 2/3 rds the length of a Football field at the end of the game and making an accurate pass to his receiver.

This is absolutely an unbelievable performance. Especially for an athlete so young. Anyhow, I'm glad he chose BB for his career.


TED Z

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  #40  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:19 AM
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Snapolit1 Snapolit1 is offline
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Ted - the depth of your knowledge on many issues is just staggering. Thanks for your regular contributions. While general bitching and moaning will always have a prominent place on Net 54, it's nice to come here and learn things too. General thanks for posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Lou

Bowman cards were printed by Zabel Bros. Printers (in Philly). They employed 38" track (4-color process) printing presses to produce their small size (1948 - 1952) BB and FB cards.
Each press run produced a 72-card sheet. Two 36-card formats were printed (inverted with respect to each other) on a 38-inch wide cardboard sheet (see sheet scan below).

The first cut of the 72-card sheet was done to separate the two 36-card arrangements. This first cut was a "rough" cut relative to the subsequent "sharp" cuts of the individual cards.

This first cut resulted in the cards in the middle of this sheet [Pieretti, Snider, Russell, and Mize (name on front)] having a rough left border.






TED Z

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  #41  
Old 09-12-2019, 06:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Ted - the depth of your knowledge on many issues is just staggering. Thanks for your regular contributions. While general bitching and moaning will always have a prominent place on Net 54, it's nice to come here and learn things too. General thanks for posting.

Steve

I really appreciate your very kind words.

Thank you,


TED Z

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  #42  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:05 PM
dclarkraiders dclarkraiders is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Ted - the depth of your knowledge on many issues is just staggering. Thanks for your regular contributions. While general bitching and moaning will always have a prominent place on Net 54, it's nice to come here and learn things too. General thanks for posting.
Well said Steve. I could not agree more. Ted’s contributions to Net 54 are outstanding.

Thanks Ted

Duane Clark
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  #43  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:34 PM
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RCMcKenzie RCMcKenzie is online now
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I learned something new about the rough edge on all the Sniders. I have a Bowman partial sheet, I need to look and see who is on it.

Regarding the WAR stat. I don't know what all goes into it, but it seems to churn out the right names. Bonds and Ruth are at the top. Snider is with Joe Cronin, Fred Clarke, Larry Walker and Dale Murphy. I saw Murphy and Walker play and they were among the most dangerous batters of their eras.
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  #44  
Old 09-13-2019, 06:57 AM
Paul S Paul S is offline
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Ted, I can believe everything you wrote in this post...except for Pete Rozelle smiling
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
One more say....and then I'll go away.

This story will be appreciated by the few Duke Snider fans on this thread.

I am sure some of you remember Pete Rozelle, NFL Commissioner (1960 - 1989). Rozelle and Snider were classmates at Compton High School in the early 1940's.

Circa 1970's, a Sports reporter was "stunned" by Pete Rozelle's answer when he asked him….. "what was the most exciting play that he had seen in all his years in
Football ?"

Pete smiled and he replied...."In 1944, his High School was playing for the Championship, and with less than 10 seconds left in the game, Duke Snider (QB) threw
a perfect 63-yard pass to his receiver to win the game and Compton High School won the Championship that year."

Can you imagine.....an 18-year old throwing a FB approx. 2/3 rds the length of a Football field at the end of the game and making an accurate pass to his receiver.

This is absolutely an unbelievable performance. Especially for an athlete so young. Anyhow, I'm glad he chose BB for his career.


TED Z

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  #45  
Old 09-13-2019, 08:29 AM
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rats60 rats60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
I learned something new about the rough edge on all the Sniders. I have a Bowman partial sheet, I need to look and see who is on it.

Regarding the WAR stat. I don't know what all goes into it, but it seems to churn out the right names. Bonds and Ruth are at the top. Snider is with Joe Cronin, Fred Clarke, Larry Walker and Dale Murphy. I saw Murphy and Walker play and they were among the most dangerous batters of their eras.
From 1953-1956 Snider was 1st twice and 2nd behind Mays twice in WAR among position players. Considering the Dodgers won 3 pennants in those 4 years, a strong argument can be made that Snider should have won 2 or 3 MVPs. If that happened today, i believe Snider would have. In 1955 and 1956, the top 3 in WAR among position players in MLB were Mantle, Mays and Snider both years. At his peak, Snider was in the same class as Mantle and Mays and those who saw him remember how great Snider was at that time. He just didn't have the longevity that puts Mantle and Mays among the all time greats in the game's history.
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