How were the T206 printed?

[Lunker21]

Ok... Im looking for resources to understand how the T206 were printed.
I have scratched the surface to understand the notion of player repeats in columns, with multiple players in same column. (From cards with same name top bottom, and some w different player over/under)
And different players in each row. (From cards w diff players side to side)
...and obviously different backs and factories.

Quick questions...
1)How were the presses set up for the different colors for one player?
(7 different presses? One for each color plate? All arranged with the same AAAABBBB columns and ACEG columns?) So like 42 plates x 7 presses for one player card run?

2)What were the plates? Stone? Metal?

3)once fronts printed all colors, Were all backs printed centrally, then cut, then shipped to diff factories for 'fac stamp' (on cut cards?)
.. or were all fronts printed centrally, shipped large, then backs/fac# printed in separate locations, then cut?
... or were there multiple sets of plates for same player at separate print shops? (So fronts, backs, factory # printed in different locations, then cut?)

Has there been any comparison on prints of a single pose from one factory vs another? (Meaning... if there were multiple plate sets, were there slight differences?)
...and if there arent differences between sungle pose from different factories, does that imply a single set of plates for a player pose, shipped factory to factory?

...and what happened to the plates? Not a single remains? Metal and melted for war? Stone and resurfaced?

...finally, overprints... if a fac 30 ny being overprint by fac42 nc... front and back printed at fac30 ny.. then cut.. then shipped to fac42 nc to overprint?
If overprint by whole big sheet... all 'offsets' of a miss should occur in exact same (wrong) spot on the number of cards on the sheet...
Are there any examples of an overprint error in exact same wrong spot on different players?

Thanks in advance!

Craig

[Lunker21]

.... and... if there were four copies of a player pose in a column... does that imply 4 plates of that pose and color... or was it one plate, w the sheet moved firward one card height... meaning four presses of one plate (instead of 1 press of 4 plates?)

[G1911]

We have learned much in the last few years, but there are many blanks and deductions still.

For number 2, they used printing stones.

For number 3:

It seems very unlikely to me that multiple facilities were used to produce a single sheet. It makes much more sense that the sheet was run through both sides, cut up, and the cut cards shipped to the factories for packing. As American Lithographic, Bien, Brett and others were naming, marketing, and designing packs for the tobacco monopoly, the shipping was presumably easy as they were already sending tons of material. Multiple facilities were probably used over the course of production; the claim that all the T cards were made at American Lithographs's headquarters office in NYC is a busted myth that never had any evidence for it.

What happened to the plates? They are lost to time unless one appears. They or the production material and art required to make them must have been kept around by one of the lithography firms until 1919 at least to produce the final T206 clone set, T213-3. Nobody would have considered them to have any value at the time.

Overprintes were probably edited at the lithographer, rerunning existing stock sheets to X out the factory and overstep a different one rather than reprint the whole sheet, in order to comply with the law requiring the factory to be present on premiums. There's no evidence or reason to think that the tobacco factories did any of the printing directly themselves.

The sheets are probably larger than most imagine - other T card material strongly suggests very large sheet sizes, which surprised me. There may not have been a large number of unique subjects per sheet though; as no uncut T206 material is known outside of the Wagner strip that clearly isn't production, if that is even authentic. Miscuts have shown lots of top/bottom and some adjacent cards, but not enough to piece together anything approaching a full sheet. There is evidence that other sheets of T cards from the same AL/ATC partnership of the same physical size as T206 contained 25 unique cards (T42).

Steve B. needs to come answer the technical questions , and Pat will know much more about the T206 specifics.

[Lunker21]

Thank you thank you!!
(Where are those stones?!!!)

[steve B]

My comments in blue

Originally Posted by Lunker21

Ok... Im looking for resources to understand how the T206 were printed.
I have scratched the surface to understand the notion of player repeats in columns, with multiple players in same column. (From cards with same name top bottom, and some w different player over/under)
And different players in each row. (From cards w diff players side to side)
...and obviously different backs and factories.

Quick questions...
1)How were the presses set up for the different colors for one player?
(7 different presses? One for each color plate? All arranged with the same AAAABBBB columns and ACEG columns?) So like 42 plates x 7 presses for one player card run?

Typically the plate for each color would be used, then the next one and so on. The sheer size of the print runs most likely meant multiple presses, maybe not the 8 plus a back, but more than one.

2)What were the plates? Stone? Metal?
Simple answer- Stones. Huge about 2-4" thick slabs of specially prepared limestone
Longer answer - We know for sure that stone plates were used for at least some of them. There's a card that someimes comes with a nail impression that essentially could only be from a flatbed press printing from stones.
But..... It was a time of technological change in printing, and there is a bit of evidence that a two color press may have also been used, which would probably be metal plates. It's also possible that a press that printed from a roll of cardstock rather than from individual sheets was used for some and that would probably have been metal plates.


3)once fronts printed all colors, Were all backs printed centrally, then cut, then shipped to diff factories for 'fac stamp' (on cut cards?)
.. or were all fronts printed centrally, shipped large, then backs/fac# printed in separate locations, then cut?
... or were there multiple sets of plates for same player at separate print shops? (So fronts, backs, factory # printed in different locations, then cut?)

They would have been printed all in the same plant. And probably cut in the same plant too. Then delivered to the appropriate factory as finished product.

Has there been any comparison on prints of a single pose from one factory vs another? (Meaning... if there were multiple plate sets, were there slight differences?)
...and if there arent differences between sungle pose from different factories, does that imply a single set of plates for a player pose, shipped factory to factory?
Yes! A few of us have done this. The back front combinations also fit into groups. (if you want to get into this.... welcome to the crazy club!)
Fronts were most likely printed generically then given backs to match an order from a particular brand.

...and what happened to the plates? Not a single remains? Metal and melted for war? Stone and resurfaced?

The stones were large and expensive. They were almost always resurfaced and redone with new transfers.
The master stones that transfers were printed from are actually not all that expensive for stuff other than cards.
There are a couple out there with cards, ne hockey card and I think one other. But the large stones were all resurfaced and reused. (Now that I've put it as an absolute thing one will turn up tomorrow... )

...finally, overprints... if a fac 30 ny being overprint by fac42 nc... front and back printed at fac30 ny.. then cut.. then shipped to fac42 nc to overprint?
If overprint by whole big sheet... all 'offsets' of a miss should occur in exact same (wrong) spot on the number of cards on the sheet...
Are there any examples of an overprint error in exact same wrong spot on different players?

Overprints were probably done on complete sheets at the printer. Alternately, they might have done partial sheets on a smaller press, but I think that's unlikely. The location of the overprint would be subject to the same registration issues and/or the same faulty layout issues any of the other colors were. Overprint position relative to the subject on the front is something I don't think has been studied in any detail yet. But it's a good avenue to look into.

Thanks in advance!

Craig

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Lunker21

.... and... if there were four copies of a player pose in a column... does that imply 4 plates of that pose and color... or was it one plate, w the sheet moved firward one card height... meaning four presses of one plate (instead of 1 press of 4 plates?)

More like 8+ of each subject in a column.

The plate would have been a bit bigger than the sheet, and would have printed one color for an entire sheet all at once.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by steve B

More like 8+ of each subject in a column.

The plate would have been a bit bigger than the sheet, and would have printed one color for an entire sheet all at once.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Steve. (and Greg)

and a T206..


.

[atx840]

Steve is the master on all things printing.

My theory is a lot were printed while drunk.

[tedzan]

The actual "printing" of millions of T206 cards using Stones is going back to the "stone-age"

Actually, engraved images from the stones were then transferred to metal plates to be printed.

The American Lithographic Bldg. (where the T206 cards were printed) still stands in NYC at the
corner of 19th St. and 5th Ave. They used 19" wide cylindrical presses to produce the T206
cards.

Illustrated here is my concept......using the example of the Exclusive 12 cards in the 460-only
Series. I base this concept on American Lithograph's use of 19" wide cylindrical presses and the
standard size 19" x 24" cardboard sheets of that period (1909 - 1911).


.. v ............................................ 19" x 24" sheet .............................................v



This topic has been discussed on Net54 as far back as 2007 (and several more times since then).
For more specific info regarding the Exclusive 12 group, check out this link.... T206 Reference


TED Z
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The American Lithographic Bldg. (where the T206 cards were printed) still stands in NYC at the
corner of 19th St. and 5th Ave. They used 19" wide cylindrical presses to produce the T206
cards.

.

What's the source evidence that all the T206's were printed in this particular facility? We know they controlled many facilities.

I do not see how we can claim this layout and sheet size to be a fact rather than one of many possibilities. We know that at least some of the ATC sheets were much, much larger than this. They may not all have been the same size, or of this size.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by G1911

What's the source evidence that all the T206's were printed in this particular facility? We know they controlled many facilities.

No one said that American Lithographic in NYC was the only printing facility which produced Tobacco cards ! !

Originally Posted by G1911

I do not see how we can claim this layout and sheet size to be a fact rather than one of many possibilities. We know that at least some of the ATC sheets were much, much larger than this. They may not all have been the same size, or of this size.

I did NOT claim that my sheet was a "FACT"......I did say it was my "CONCEPT", which I based on my long-term
research of Tobacco cards and Printing methods (I did work in a Print Shop when I was in High School).

So, what is your problem ? .....My use of 19"- wide cylindrical presses, or the standard size 19" x 24" cardboard
sheets, or both ? ?

If so, then GOOGLE.....American Lithograph and it's working operation (1909 - 1919). Because that is my source
of information.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[ty_cobb]

very good work, enjoy all the posts , would be interesting to hypothesize what is on a wagner sheet! tales back in the day may indicate plank on the sheet? one can only imagine the sheer heart attack you would sustain finding 10 wagners on the same printing sheet

as to backs /overprints , Ive seen quite a few oddities in the ATC T Flag series of all kinds of massive factory overprinting that far superceded anything that happened in T206, and are the back overprints a thing that happen after?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tedzan

No one said that American Lithographic in NYC was the only printing facility which produced Tobacco cards ! !




I did NOT claim that my sheet was a "FACT"......I did say it was my "CONCEPT", which I based on my long-term
research of Tobacco cards and Printing methods (I did work in a Print Shop when I was in High School).

So, what is your problem ? .....My use of 19"- wide cylindrical presses, or the standard size 19" x 24" cardboard
sheets, or both ? ?

If so, then GOOGLE.....American Lithograph and it's working operation (1909 - 1919). Because that is my source
of information.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Do you have any evidence that T206 was printed in this particular facility? If so, what is this evidence? We know where a few of the sets were printed from primary source documents, but T206 does not appear to be in them. I’m very interested to see the evidence T206 was done in this building.

Your sheet layout is a “concept”, but you gave the press size producing the sheet as an absolute fact. This is not proven. You have a source from Google that details them using this sheet size to make T206?

If one makes a claim to fact, there should be the evidence for it. To be asked for evidence is not a problem. I am happy to provide my source for every claim to fact I have ever made, as is reasonable and the standard for research.

[ty_cobb]

early discussion thread of this topic below
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=162935

[Jeffrompa]

Originally Posted by Lunker21

Thank you thank you!!
(Where are those stones?!!!)

Best question of the year .

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Lunker21

Thank you thank you!!
(Where are those stones?!!!)

Originally Posted by Jeffrompa

Best question of the year .

Storage could be a problem.

166510 - Copy.jpg

[steve B]

That's a very large stone.

Most were a bit smaller. The ones in this pic I swiped from a stock photo place were either for small presses, or more likely were the masters.



Printing from stones isn't really stone age. (Although I like that way of putting it. ) It's still done at some art printing places.

I guess a few definitions of sorts to clarify things.

Direct stone lithography - Just what it sounds like, the image is drawn or put down as a transfer to the stone, in a mirror image of what's wanted. Then the stone is wet, inked and a print taken. It's labor intensive and slow, and the stones wear pretty quickly. Somehow it's the method has survived commercially despite being the oldest. It's still used for short runs of art prints. (It can even be done at home with no stones, using crayons, paper, water and an oil based ink. Excellent results are challenging, it usually comes out looking just like it sounds )

Flatbed offset lithography. - The images are put on the stone normally, wet inked and then printed onto a rubber sheet that's on a roller, then printed to the paper. Still pretty labor intensive, but not as much as direct. The stones don't get worn as quickly, and the presses are faster.
There is some proof this method was used for at least some T206s. One particular card with a major defect that could only some from a press like this.

Rotary offset - here's where things get "interesting". With this method a prepared plate is wrapped around a roller. (Usually aluminum) Wet, inked automatically, and then the plate prints to the blanket which prints to the paper. all between rollers.
This is the method that is essentially used for most commercial printing. There was a big change several years ago and current pesses make the plates on the press from digital files. But it was nearly unchanged until well into the 1980's.

For all three, the stone/plate can be made using transfers printed from master stones so that multiple "identical" items can be printed from a larger stone.

Sheet fed- just that, the press is loaded with individual sheets.
Web fed - The press takes in paper from a large roll, and either produces a large printed roll or has an onboard cutter that cuts off individual sheets.
-------------------

The following includes some conjecture that is difficult to prove, but can be convincingly argued.
---------------------
The interesting parts? Most sources online say the first press of this type was made right around 1910. And was eventually sent to the west coast.

But... Not to any shop associated with ALC.

I have seen references to RS Hoe making a rotary offset press prior to or in 1909.
And from other sources ALC was pretty tight with RS Hoe. They were possibly Hoes biggest customer.
Hoe made some insane stuff for other types of printing. Multiple station typography presses that were web fed for producing newspapers. Multi color presses for newspapers and ads...

1909-1911 falls directly into a time of massive technological change, as all the modern things in lithography were either being invented, or were just getting to be common enough to be known. And RS Hoe was right at the forefront along with a few others.

There are some things that point towards a two color lithographic press being used. And that in turn also seems to indicate a rotary press before the supposed 1911 invention. (Just because even a two color flatbed offset would be a high level of mechanical insanity.) And that... leads to a possibility that it was web fed.

A web fed two color rotary offset press in 1909 or earlier would have been sufficiently advanced in efficiency that anyone sensible would have treated it as a trade secret.
RS Hoe had essentially all the pieces to do that at the time. If it was done for Their largest customer ALC, it's possible they contracted some period of exclusivity.

It's possible, perhaps even probable that ALC and it's affiliated shops printed sheets of different sizes by different methods.
The discussions, often heated we've had since 2007 (Only 2009 ish for me) for a while revolved around paper size and if the cards were done in groups of 12 or groups of 17 (or more)
I think both are probable. The smaller print groups that mostly consist of 12 cards to a group are well established based on experience of guys like Ted, and as iffy as it mays seem, pop reports. Likewise, the groups of 17/34 like the Souther leaguers are also well established.

At this point, I consider both 12 and 17 card groups to be fact.

There are lots of angles to study, like looking very closely to see if the brands with small press runs can be identified as being done separately or if they were done on fronts shared with the more common brands.