Leland's Offering Grading Company Sonic Welder??

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Posted By: Jeff S.

Not sure how this makes me feel. Any thoughts on whether this can reverse a weld and reseal? Could open the door to unscrupulous possibilities...

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=2&auctionid=715

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Posted By: Phil Garry

I saw the same thing and thought it was "interesting". I think I have recently seen either the same piece or a similar one on e-bay with a very high minimum bid/buy it now price. Anyone else remember that?

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Posted By: G. Maines

I do not believe that you can "reverse" a sonic weld.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I noticed that too...could be used for nefarious purposes I suppose if someone got hold of SGC or PSA supplies. Wasn't there an ebay seller selling off the little paper flips a while back?

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Is this from GAI?

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Posted By: Dave Haas

Couldn't someone crack open SGC/PSA slabs and use the flip in a new sealed case with an inferior/trimmed card? Opens all sorts of possibilities.

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Posted By: Jeff S.

You'd need the same cases though, as I imagine a cracked case would be damaged afterwards. I can't see the larger grading companies letting blanks out of their sights too often. Curious as to whether these machines are case-specific in regards to sealing.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

The uses could be endless.

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Posted By: Paul Krause

This is the machine Scott Gaynor used when he started his own grading company.
He even sold some of his graded cards on ebay.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

There is precedent, as Doctor Who used a sonic screwdriver only for good.




"You're thinking is straight from the 24th century."
-- Doctor Who, criticizing someone for having antiquated ideas

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Dave is right. I have 1 PSA 8 Ruth and 3 PSA 7 Ruths. I could crack out the 8 flip, seal it with one of the PSA 7 cards and sell it as an 8. Then I regrade the 8, get a new flip and continue the process. Lots of room for larceny here.

Frank

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Posted By: scgaynor

I don't own this piece, but the person that did the encapsulating the short time that I was grading cards does own it. I really wish that I had the time to expand on that venture as I think that it was a good idea and I was happy with the results. It was just too time consuming. I was not trying to start my own grading company or anything, it was just a way to advertise. It would be a good item for an autograph dealer that wants to encapsulate cuts or signed cards. The flip would be the dealers COA much the same that it is for JSA or PSA.

As for the potential dangers of this piece getting into the wrong hands, I don't think that you have to be in an exclusive club to buy one from whoever makes it. It is just a piece of industrial equipment that anybody can buy.

The custom cases that are included are nothing like those used by SGC or PSA (or any other company). I don't know if it can be used to take other cases apart, but even if it could, the seals would be broken and it would be obvious if somebody tried to put it back together.

Scott

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

That assumes PSA grades the cracked out PSA 8 an 8 again. Not a risk I would take. Might end up in an Authentic holder and you could sell it for $1000.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

That assumes PSA grades the cracked out PSA 8 an 8 again. Not a risk I would take. Might end up in an Authentic holder and you could sell it for $1000.

Then again, it might come back a PSA 9 and I'd make a fortune.

Frank

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

It would be awesome if it worked that way but nobody I know is having that kind of luck with PSA right now.

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Posted By: Solomon

With a google search, you can find similar welders being sold by many companies, with nothing to do with sports collectibles. When I looked at them a number of years ago, I think they were $10-20K new - maybe half that used.

Beyond that, you need a horn to be made to fit the item you're welding. You can't just weld an SGC slab if the size of the horn is made for a PSA slab. How well the seal is made is determined by how well the horn fits the item being slabbed. Horns are another $2000-3000 from my recollection.

Finally, you have the holders themselves. This is where the grading companies focus their security measures. All the various unique features of the holders are what would keep someone from simply switching cards, or slabbing their own and passing them off as PSA/SGC/etc.

If you have "blank" holders, you can do a lot of damage with the above equipment in a fraudulent fashion. If you don't have blanks - all you'll be able to do is a little better job sealing than someone with a bottle of glue. The holders will still show the frosting from where they were cracked and pried open.

Having said all that...I'm not sure it really passes the smell test for an auction company to sell a "start your own grading company" package.

I haven't seen any opportunity to make money in grading since 2000, unless you are part of a major established company.

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Posted By: Jantz

that came to my mind was. What if the boys from Spinal Tap bought this machine and started grading cards. Would their grading scale go from 1 to 11?


Jantz

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Posted By: Paul

Jantz, I just watched that movie again a few days ago. I couldn't agree more.

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Posted By: Fred C

The only way this thing could be a problem is if people started ordering plastic cases similar to SGC, PSA or GAI. If that was the case then the owner could possibly crack the card and label and place the label in the appropriate location and seal in a different card.

Maybe this will inspire SGC, PSA and GAI to somehow come up with a custom seal for their sonic welds.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I hear PSA gives a 15 percent discount on grading if you bring your own sonic welder to the card show.

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Posted By: MW

It wouldn't work...

Even if someone had enough time, patience and money to perfectly duplicate the flips, holders and had the right fitting for the sonic sealing process, they (he/she) would still encounter a problem with the serial numbers. I suppose one could resubmit the same high-grade card over and over, hoping to obtain enough usable flips, but that certainly wouldn't be foolproof. The other alternative, duplicating serial numbers of already graded cards, wouldn't work either. Within a relatively short period of time, the duplication would be discovered by someone from a forum such as this one and the game (crime) would be up.

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Posted By: David Smith

I sure hope that Roy Huff doesn't find out about this....

David

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Posted By: Solomon

Did anyone ever establish exactly what WIWAG was doing with the PSA cards/holders? I had heard a number of theories/stories back in the day, from they were able to get some unsealed PSA holders and flips, to cracking out cards and resealing the holders, etc.

I recall selling to them, more than buying from them, before everything happened. Modern cards were definately the way to go with running a scam like this, as older cards tend to have more character and be distinctive. Half the hobby can't tell the difference between a high end 9 and a 10 on a modern card, and the other half are lucky at guessing.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I believe that machine was owned by PCG - professional card graders..... cardgraders.com

they are no longer in business, but every now and then their cards are up on ebay. Identical cases to PSA but with yellow labels.

i once visited their offices in florida and this was the identical machine they had before they closed.

While it can seal the cases.... it can't open them.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

For the discovery of the WIWAG fiasco. IIRC, it involved a modern basketball card of a player such as Bonzi Wells and escalated from there. Paul, if you want to add some more details as to how you figured it out, this board will not delete your comments

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: jay wolt

MW brought up a great point
the flips would sooner or later be caught by the public.
If duplication exists it eventually will be noticed.
If arbitrary cert #'s are used - they will not work when
the buyer adds the card to his PSA or SGC registry set.
Not everyone uses the registry for his cards but enough do
to cause a problem. Then when the authorities investigate
it will take no time to see where the cards were initially
bought from especially since most transactions will be from
eBay and easily traced.

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Posted By: keyway

I was a comercial construction worker before I retired. Quite often we would do work in a plant where they made them. I never did think of getting one, but you can buy all you want any time you want. It's not like there scarce.