Kevin Saucier - Adding Value

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, I wasn't really quoting you, but this is the impression I have gotten from statements you have made.

This hobby is not going to get cleaned up unless people share information with one another about altered cards. So far from what I have seen nobody is willing to step up to the plate and show which cards they know to be problem cards. There can only be one reason for this secretiveness....They don't care if this problem gets circulated to the next guy because they probably have a lot of money in the card.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share.

Charlie,

You are not piling on--it is a very interesting thread except for Sean who wants to make it a personal attack against me. I would agree on a price before. These guys are my friends Charlie. Steve Novella does tons of things for me. Buy cards for me, sells all my dupes on ebay for no charge, submits to psa on my behalf, comes to me with deals etc. He would be offended to suggest he should take a higher price for something he believes is legit anyway.. I hope that as a reputable dealer you would have the same standards.

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Posted By: Sean C

you really must have a selective memory. If you search these boards, you will see that I was one of the early volunteers help out on your "clean up the hobby" crusade, but backed out after you posted a few of your personal social views.

As for your second comment, you are only proving my point: you are more concerned about advancing your collection than you are about cleaning up the hobby. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just something that needs to be made clear.

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JimCrandell
(Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 18 2007, 4:08 PM


Sean,

Boy you are an ass. I tried to do a number of things and you were nowhere to be seen.

Now I need to buy cards and I want a second opinion. For the fifth time so even you can understand, no dealer will sell me a card if they thought it was going to end up on a list.

==========================================

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Posted By: JimCrandell

For the sixth time.....boy are you thick.

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Posted By: Brian

I am glad you are against personal attacks Jim.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, will you be sending any of the cards you currently own to Kevin or will it only be new cards you are looking at buying? If a card comes back as "altered" what will you do with that card?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

If I buy an expensive card from a dealer I will send it to Kevin. As I have said numerous times on this board I am not sending any cards I own in. If Kevin is not comfortable with the card I will return it to the dealer.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Dan's question refered to cards that Kevin would deem "altered", not ones that he was "not comfortable with".

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Posted By: pas

Expecting Kevin to "out" cards is misguided in my opinion. If anyone really wants to bring about change, try pressuring PSA to make transparent who submitted a card. It would not work prospectively, as people would just change their submitting habits, but wouldn't it be interesting to know for the millions of cards already graded?

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Posted By: MikeU

"Stay tuned next week for Kevin's website launch. Will have endorsements from Rob Lifson, Mike Baker, Rich Mueller among others."

I want to specifically see Mike Baker and Rob Lifson endorse/agree with the following paragraph from the Website:

"In the future you will have the opportunity to send in your high valued graded sportscards for an in-depth examination by, who many consider, the top expert in the field. Cards that pass will have a small "verified unaltered" tamper-evident hologram sticker placed on the back of the graded holder. This will hopefully add greater value to a card and an added security level when selling it."

If Rob and Mike say that Kevin is more knowlegable then they are, Kevin will get some business from me.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Bob,

I have no idea what language Kevin will use but what he tells me I will tell the dealer.

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Posted By: Steve

FWIW the coin industry is doing something similar. For a fee a person can send in a coin (already graded) and the syndicate (that is what they are calling it) of experienced dealers will attach a stamp of approval on the coin. It is more for hi end coins for the grade then alterations though. I for one would have no use for such a service yet at the same time understand how a collector like Jim may want to use one. Kevin is a friend of mine and I would trust his judgement if I needed such a service though.

I personnaly think it is overlapping a service we already have with the grading co's.



I should have prefaced my post with "this is just my opinion'


lest I be chastised for stating fact when I am only stating opinion.



Steve

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Mike,

You know that will not be the case so its silly to mention it. I think it is significant though that the most respected auction house in the hobby and the leading grader are endorsing Kevin. Certainly not surprised that Rob would take a stand like this.

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Posted By: Wesley

Does Rob even know Kevin? I doubt Rob is going to reject consignments based on Kevin's opinion. That would be suicide for REA.

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Posted By: Larry

IF PSA & SGC BOTH SAY a card is ungradeable, I have more faith in BOTH than either one alone, even if Kevin gives his opinion, no offense to Kevin. Jim Crandall wants to protect himself by not putting any more money into expensive cards without some help, no problem, that makes sense, Kevin obviously has doctoring skills to share.

Mr. Crandall fails to see one very important aspect, this is NOT cleaning up the hobby if that was his real goal, this is just protecting his future endeavors. This is OK but is just that, it is an act to help him have eyes that he feels are better than SGC or PSA have.

The really ironic thing is the quantity of bad cards that Jim must have( based on 28,000 psa cards bought over 15 years or so) just based on percentages should be the first to be examined if he is concerned about altering, that would be a real cleanup. Jim, we all know you do not want this because it will devalue your collection and you want your family to keep your collection for posterity anyway. PSA should be partially responsible if Kevin expertise found that PSA is wrong and can substantiate this with documentation. This will change things for the better, enforcement with proof. Otherwise, Jim, use Kevin and most of us will rely on SGC and PSA, the two companies similar findings will stand for more combined that any individual or company, or if you like raw cards, believe in your own judgement.

If SGC and PSA BOTH say it is no good, that is the best insurance combo you can get, in my humble opinion.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Larry,

You are either incredibly uninformed or want to discredit Kevin and/or me--either way it is a very low thing to do and you should be ashamed of yourself.

You have never seen one card I own--most of my cards were raw cards I sent in myself but you could care less about the actual facts.

Yes I care about the hobby--do you??--apparently not throwing around such lies. I also in the future want to buy cards I am sure are untampered with--sorry you cannot get that through your thick skull.

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Posted By: Tom Nieves

Jim,

Are you aware that the person that you think is the 'top expert in the field' doesn't know how (and doesn't even think it's possible) to stretch a card? That says it all, my friend. Stretching is one of the easiest and most common processes involved in card alteration.

Tom

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Posted By: pas

Whether or not Jim sends his cards to Kevin is a non issue in my opinion.

The real issue, if you think there is one, is that there are a handful or more of people who are very very good at doctoring cards and they have made a great deal of money getting these cards past the grading services for many years and continue to do so, particularly PSA who grades far more cards than SGC. Since PSA does not tell you on a cert check who submitted a card, the collector has no way to know if he is buying these cards or not. Ebay, auctions, every other channel you might buy from are full of these cards. It's just a fact of life. I don't see it changing much, frankly, and I am just as guilty as anyone else of wishful thinking (i.e., MY cards aren't bad).

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

Not just my opinion but the opinion of most informed people in the hobby--not aware of the stretching argument

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm missing something here.

Do you mean to say that if Rob auctions a graded card, the winning bidder shows it to Kevin, and Kevin feels it is altered, Rob will then give the buyer a full refund? Then what does he tell his consignor? I don't get this.

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Posted By: pas

No way Rob is going to do that in my opinion.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I have to laugh at all the opinions that seem to attack Jim or Kevin. It seems they have a business venture they are willing to try and feel it will work. If you don't like it, so be it, you obviously won't use it. But if his service makes you more comfartable about making a big purchase than you will more than likely use him.

They will sink or fail on their own merit no skin off your back if you don't use them. Otherwise it certainly will not affect you.

Lee

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Posted By: barrysloate

Do you know how many consignments an auction house would lose under those circumstances? Why would a consignor agree to that? Again, I may be misunderstanding this.

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Posted By: JimB

"To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share."

Jim,
If none of your 50,000 graded cards have any problem, then:
1) What makes you think that everybody else's graded cards are altered and that the grading companies have done such a poor job of identifying altered cards?
2) Why do you think an additional service on top of what the grading companies already do is either necessary or will provide something not already covered? Wouldn't this just be redundant and problematic?

If they have been correct 50,000 out of 50,000 times with your collection, then it seems that everything must be in working order.
JimB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Come on--you are smarter than that--just because Rob gives Kevin an endorsement does not mean there is a return privledge.

Lee,

Thats one reason I like your brother and Scott's board--you avoid the lunatics.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

JimB,

I didn't know you were on LTS! Congratulations!

Did not say I did not have any problem cards--just have no idea which they may be.

Jim

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Posted By: pas

Jim C are you suggesting there are lunatics on this Board?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

See post 64.

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Posted By: JimB

"To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share."

“Did not say I did not have any problem cards--just have no idea which they may be.”

Isn't that what Kevin is here for? Cleaning the hobby starts at home, right?

JimB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

You know my stance on that.

Do you like LTS?

Did you vote for or against Kevin coming back on?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'd just like to say I have no problem with Jim C or Kevin and whatever venture they go into I hope is successful. I guess I assumed all this time that both of them were concerned with cleaning up the hobby and getting altered cards out of slabs. That doesn't seem to be the case though.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I'm trying to understand what the endorsement means.

Can you endorse somebody when you are not prepared to go by his decision?

I think Kevin is a good guy and seems to know his stuff, and I would endorse his skills too. But if a buyer tries to return an SGC graded card to me because Kevin doesn't like it, guess what- he can't.

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Posted By: pas

Barry sure why not. I endorse Barack Obama but I would never vote for him. Let's see what Rob says or doesn't say, I guess.

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Posted By: pas

Jim, if he told you he would have to kill you, you know that.

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Posted By: Tom Nieves

Also, Jim, I wouldn't be so sure about Larry never having seen any of the cards in your collection. From what I understand, he has a very close relationship with a couple of guys that have sold thousands of cards to you.

Tom

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just a show of hands please:

How many people would like the grading services do such a good job that the process of authenticating would begin and end right there? And how many believe that it is possible for the graders to improve both their skills and their track record?

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

comfartable is a gas......

edited to add it's in Lee's 6:58 post

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think Kevin is basically starting a service that could conceivably be used by those looking to buy expensive graded cards and just want an assurance that the cards are unaltered. I'm not sure what the problem is. If I saw an expensive card for auction that had Kevin's seal of approval it would probably make me feel better and might impact my bidding. Or it might not. But it might. I don't see that Kevin's business venture has much to lose and perhaps something to gain.

As for the "endorsements" that he is gaining, that should give us some additional comfort with Kevin. Of course, the endorsements could just be a marketing ploy by the endorsers.

Finally, Jim, while you think there are no lunatics on Jay's board, you are aware that his partner on the board dresses up roosters in razor-sharp spurs and lets them tear each other to shreds while he roots them on? In most dictionaries, that is the definition of lunacy.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

Forget about me--look at all Kevin has done to advance the knowledge on card alterations. Isn't he entitled to make money--and aren't I entitled to have an extra pair of eyes look at cards I buy?

Tom,

Only person who could possibly meet that criteria is Steve Novella and I trust him. I refuse to believe someone like Larry could have a close relationship with Steve.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, of course we all think the graders can improve their skills and their track records; however, due to PSA's business practices we all know that such a thing will never happen there -- thus the potential need for a low volume, high end grader like Kevin (at least to review PSA cards; I actually have nearly total comfort with SGC's product).

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Fair points all around. I was referring to just the posts.

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Posted By: pas

Marketing ploy? Doesn't sound like REA's style.

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Posted By: Larry

Jim-

Must have struck a nerve that is like a root canal....The truth is that you yourself said 5-10% of cards may be tainted, just do the math..I am not saying you did serious altering and maybe your cards are all great, so why are you afraid to have your cards checked out by kevin just to see one way or another, then he could help PSA and that was your purpose, "to help the industry".

I think you are way out of line, I was extremely polite and if I am wrong, then say it nicely, you come across to many as someone who thinks that your collection is pristine while everyonme else has a problem, I do not see anywhere in my writing that puts you in a bad light, be careful not to protest so strongly, it is better to say, I just rather not.

I am not someone who lacks knowledge but I certainly do not come across as someone who thinks the grading services now need a new endorsement verification system.

Steve Novella bought his R316 Ruth PSA 6 from me, I sell many people and never try to put you down.

Rob Lifson and I grew up together, we know each other very well, he will testify that I am very knowledgeble, and also care about being fair. I apologize for making you seem silly in your militant response. I just think kevin can help you and you can see for yourself that the problem is not worth the time to get bent over this.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

In a way, isn't PSA already providing a service for high end cards? Sure, you get two day service for 55 bucks, but this is only for cards that are worth $1000-$2499. Any card from $2500-$10K has to go at the $85 level. In addition to the quicker service, one would assume (Oh-Oh) that these higher end cards would be scrutinized more than the VG3 commons. I am being naive about this?

Rick

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Larry,

You were very rude. If you want to apologize fine. If not I could care less who you grew up with--go harass someone else.

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Posted By: Larry

Jim-

I just read further down that you feel I am putting down Kevin, totally untrue...Kevin has extremely high level of knowledge and usefulness for the industry, you were just totally out of line and speculative for whatever reason.

I will not put you down Jim, I treat people with respect and with my 37 years of knowledge in the industry, old school and new school baseball cards, I am very appreciative and respectful of the many years it must have taken you to build such an esteemed collection.

As far as having a thick skull, I am lucky it is thicker than thinner, it helps to protect my brain and that is quite useful.

Have a nice holiday with your family and one day maybe you will realize that I am not trying to belittle you.

I was not rude and certainly did not intend to be rude so if you feel that way, I am humble enough to apologize. Common sense still reaffirms that you are better off gaining momentum in helping the industry as you so avidly try to when you practice what you preach, and there is no need to become arrogant.

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Posted By: Tom Nieves

Jim,

No, not Steve. I was referring to a couple of guys from Long Island.

Tom

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

Only one guy on Long Island I bought a lot of cards from unless you are referring to Dave but I thought he was a NYC guy.

Never bought a graded card from Gary but did buy a lot of ungraded cards from him--not one card he sold me ever was rejected. If he did turn into a card Doctor it was not during this period.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Larry,

Okay--maybe I overreacted--water under the bridge.

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Posted By: Larry

Jim-

I accept your response and I do not want to make you feel defensive.

This is a great hobby and the only thing I really want to express is that if TWO major grading services reject a card, in or out of holder, that is the best way to insure yourself, and if Kevin can help you, by all means it is a plus.

This little exchange of negativity should never be done again. Life is too short, I lost my father this year and that is important, not the b....s....we sometimes get wrapped up in. My father always told me to appreciate all people for their goodness and not to create waves.