Help with tobacco advertising sign

[Brian]

I am hoping an expert out there can help.
I picked up an ad from the National for Murad Turkish cigarettes. I found the exact piece listed in the collection of the NY Historical Society, so it appears to have been issued in the years 1880-1910.
My question is this: it was printed on thick paper, not cardboard, as were most ads from that era that I have seen, and it is about 8.5 by 11", which is also smaller than most advertisements I have seen. Does anyone know if originals were printed in this manner, was it trimmed, is it authentic, and have these signs been reproduced extensively? Either way, it's a beautiful piece that I will frame.
Many thanks for all the help.
Brian

[drc]

I'm not familiar with your sign and can't comment on it specifically. However, for vintage advertising signs, if they were reprinted en masse you will see reprints all around the place. There are so many Ted Williams Moxie and Joe Jackson H & B modern tin signs around it's not even funny. If you see very few examples around on old sign that suggests it wasn't reprinted, at least not en masse.

One thing that stands out to me is 8.5 x 11 is a modern standard paper size.

[Brian]

Thanks for the response.
Do you know of any books or websites dealing with pre-war tobacco advertisements and signage? I've seen some amazing pieces--Turkey Red, Fatima, etc., and I am fascinated with them as works of art and history.
Brian

[murphusa]

I would call hunt auction as the just sold a large collection of sign and ask for a catalog. You can also ask for a price realized

[Brian]

Thanks. Do you remember when the Hunt Auction occurred? I must have missed it in my search.
Brian

[khkco4bls]

First off we need a pic. of your sign. Here is my sign from the national which i could not believe matched my cigar box. Made by the Tuscarora Advertising Co. Coshocton ,Ohio which was a hotbed for tin signs from the 1870s, to about 1920 until porcline signs took over. This area in my reseach said it made some of the best signs in the country. Colors are fantastic.I couldnt be happier. orig. signs are not cheap thats for sure.

[drc]

Most cheap reprints of 1800s color lithograph signs will have a multi-color dot matrix throughout it-- at least the image area. Can bee seen under strong magnification. An original 1800s color litho image can have some dots and marks as part the art design, but a lot of areas of solid color-- and definitely not the fine dot matrix pattern. 99 percent of reprints are identified by the modern multi-color dot pattern.

As far as the 'thick paper' goes, I have an original 1800s lithograph Sweet Caporal sign. It's on cardboard, but thin by today's standards. And the back is fairly white.

[khkco4bls]

That is correct. a real sign is done layer after layer of the colors to make up the print. then it is embossed with a dye to impress certain areas.

[Brian]

Unfortunately, my scanner is all packed up as I am about to move.
Here is a link to the exact poster--I just don't know the size of the poster in the link as it is not mentioned:

http://www.nyhistory.org/exhibitions/allure-of-the-east

Comparing my print to this one, it seems as if the bottom is trimmed a bit, an eighth of an inch maybe. But the paper "looks" old, and I don't see any dot matrix type pattern--the green background is a solid color--but I don't have very strong magnifier on hand.

All help is most definitely appreciated!
Brian

[drc]

One thing is if the graphics appear sharp, colorful and clear. With many reprints, it graphics are of noticeable lesser quality-- duller, muted.

Also, if you had a black light you could identify much modern paper as it will fluoresce a bright light blue. Many modern reprints are identified with a black light.

Lastly, if the back has any foxing (age spots) that would be evidence it is old.

And very lastly, smell the back. Does it smell old, mildewy? Modern paper wouldn't smell that way.

Again, the only thing from the written that concerns me is is the modern printer paper size.

[Brian]

I am guessing that it is old since it shows foxing on the reverse and passes the "smell test." In addition, the graphics are sharp and colorful. Alas, I need to invest in a black light, however.....
Thanks for all the useful advice!
Brian