Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[D.P.Johnson]

Oops...spoke too soon...Greg removed the card...Then again, do I win a dollar or a donut???...

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I have a feeling that when this is all said and done...if ever...there will be a lot of surprising names implicated...thereby showing that corruption is more the rule...than the exception in the hobby.

+1 I couldn't agree more. Dave.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Disagree. SGC holders are actually taller and wider than PSA holders. In your picture they look the same size.

This is a slightly smaller scan of the same card.

If you're right (no trim, only an optical illusion), then how do you explain the grade bump?

[atx840]

"Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. My company purchased this card several months ago, already graded NM/MT+ 92 by SGC, in the holder in which it currently resides. I am sending the card back into SGC for them to review. Pending that review, we are removing the card from our inventory for sale listings.

Thanks again,

Greg"

[t206hound]

This reads better than reality television for sure. Will there be a "Card Detectives" series in our future? It would beat the heck out of the drivel I watch late at night!

[T206Collector]

Based on all of the evidence that has been presented here, I am persuaded that there is somebody cleaning cards with something other than bleach or another substance that would be detectable to SGC. Call it "super water" or what have you. That would certainly cause a bump in grade. A card does not have long to travel from a 6.5 to an 8.5. It's not like turning a 1 to a 3, or even a 3 to a 5. One of the reasons I don't care much for high grade cards is that once you've given me a 7, or even a 6, I'm pretty content that I'm holding a card that is, for me, mint (or at least mint enough).

My problems with the Gehrig trim theory are thus:

1. I do not think SGC would miss a trim that it is suggested here would have affected two or more of the borders, let alone on such a high dollar card. Nor do I believe SGC is involved in a conspiracy to overlook such a trim, particularly on such a high dollar card that is likely to draw some attention. So, I approach the accusation of this trim from a very suspicious perspective to begin with. If it was PSA, I would be more willing to buy into such ignorance or worse.

2. The SGC insert fits more snug than the PSA insert. While I appreciate that SGC has the ability to customize its inserts, my understanding is that they would not purposely make a smaller one here and, at the same time, miss a double-sided+ trim.

3. The side-by-side flashing scans are very persuasive until you realize that distortion is possible with just a slight difference in size. On the two back scans of the same card I posted above, one was 100% and the other was just 102% in my MSPaint Program. Also, it seems like all 4 corners get sharper in the move to the SGC holder - were 3+ borders trimmed? Finally, if a bottom and a side look more trimmed in one image than another, that can be explained by a smaller scan being dropped on top of a larger scan, where both are lined up at the top left corner.


Having said all of this, could I be persuaded that SGC got tricked on this one? Yes, I guess so. But I do not think the side-by-side scans get me there.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by atx840

"Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. My company purchased this card several months ago, already graded NM/MT+ 92 by SGC, in the holder in which it currently resides. I am sending the card back into SGC for them to review. Pending that review, we are removing the card from our inventory for sale listings.

Thanks again,

Greg"

I'm sure we're all very curious to see what SGC thinks of this one!

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

I guess now would be a good time for Greg to accept a low-ball offer on the card...I mean, I hope he wouldn't knowlingly sell an altered item on ebay...

That was kind of what I was getting at.

[Iron Horse]

It's sad to see this crap. I hope the people behind this crap are fined and or jailed. It is ruining the hobby. Someone took a beautiful Gehrig card and ruined it for $$$$. Who knows what % of high grade cards out there are in the same boat. If we don't have people doing this amazing detective work no one would even know. Well, most will not know.
It truly saddens me to see this crap.
I am sure there are people on this board that can possibly bring this up to the proper authorities i hope.
Greed, greed and more greed

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

It's sad to see this crap. I hope the people behind this crap are fined and or jailed. It is ruining the hobby. Someone took a beautiful Gehrig card and ruined it for $$$$. Who knows what % of high grade cards out there are in the same boat. If we don't have people doing this amazing detective work no one would even know. Well, most will not know.
It truly saddens me to see this crap.
I am sure there are people on this board that can possibly bring this up to the proper authorities i hope.
Greed, greed and more greed

The authorities read this board. Some of these things are very difficult if not impossible to prosecute. It's too bad too.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by Leon

The authorities read this board. Some of these things are very difficult if not impossible to prosecute. It's too bad too.

Absolutely Leon,
i provided incredibly clear proof to the authorities in my case, and all they suggested is that i go public! meanwhile the star pack grading debacle gets
worst every week.

[Iron Horse]

"The authorities read this board. Some of these things are very difficult if not impossible to prosecute. It's too bad too."

Hi Leon,
Why is it hard to prosecute when one can trace who bought from who in most of these cases???
If anyone else from our readers who is in a position to have something done wants to post or pm me I would love to hear from you.
If this crap can be traced then I am sure a little pressure will make them sing like they never have.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Who knows what % of high grade cards out there are in the same boat.

Or midgrade cards, or the cards in YOUR collection

[CW]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Not so. Put your mouse in the middle of the "I" in "BIG". The "I" grows and shrinks. In my view, the optical illusion is that you don't think the letters are moving.

This is occuring because one "I" is slightly blurrier than the other (or one is sharper than the other, to put it another way). This makes it appear to grow and shrink, yes, but compare that to how much the bottom border grows and shrinks. It is not proportionate.

If you do indeed believe that those cards are one and the same, I do not understand how you cannot see the SGC graded version of this card has a smaller (ie. trimmed) right and bottom border (when viewed from front).

Again, why is the PSA version loose in the slab, but the SGC version is snug?

That card did not look loose in the PSA slab. It looks pretty snug in the PSA holder, which is most likely why it was targeted for the trim job. In the PSA slab, the right and bottom edges are touching the insert. The top and left edges have a very slight gap between them and the insert. I've seen loose cards in PSA holders, but that Gehrig is was not one of them, imo.

The SGC inserts, as you've mentioned, can be custom cut, so I don't think we can draw any conclusions by looking at how it fits in the SGC slab.

Nothing personal, obviously, but this one looks clear cut. (intended )

€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

[Peter_Spaeth]

A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.

Simon & Garfunkel. What did I win?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by CW

Nothing personal, obviously, but this one looks clear cut. (intended )

€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

Oh, I don't take it personal. I just happen to see something you don't, like you see something I don't.

I do not believe SGC would miss a double/triple trim on such a high grade and valuable card. Are they human? Yes. But, very very unlikely. It is much more likely that the images of two scans of what is likely the same card graded by two different graders is creating the illusion of funny business. And, frankly, I see enough weirdness in the flashing Gehrigs to suggest as much.

Hopefully what SGC does here going forward will be made public. I think it is possible or even probable they bang the card for being tampered with. But, I still don't think the card has been trimmed, let alone on two or three borders.

I know lots of people distrust the men behind the curtain at the TPG. But, I have a lot of reasons to have confidence in their integrity based on my experiences with them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Simon & Garfunkel. What did I win?

A trimmed, bleached, recolored, pressed card in a TPG slab of your choice.

[Iron Horse]

Can anyone explain why it would be difficult to trace things?
If baseball can try to clean up the game. Perhaps we should try to clean up our hobby.
Hope something comes of all these conversations, investigations and facts.

[Iron Horse]

Leon,
Can you please explain why it would be hard to prosecute?
Hope you can shed some light to this.
Thx

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A class action lawsuit sounds like a great idea. I just have four questions for you and I'll get right to work on it. Who should be our named plaintiff? How should we define the class? Who should we sue? And what should we sue them for?

Peter,

The similarly situated plaintiffs should be lining up.

Best,

Eric

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Can anyone explain why it would be difficult to trace things?
If baseball can try to clean up the game. Perhaps we should try to clean up our hobby.
Hope something comes of all these conversations, investigations and facts.

I don't think it's necessarily difficult to trace the items and/or prosecute someone for altering them; I think it has more to do with the priorities of the D.A.'s and/or A.G.'s...For the most part, D.A.'s and/or A.G.'s focus on crimes that have a higher profile...They're understaffed, overworked, etc, etc...Crimes like this get put on the backburner...Like I mentioned before, I think if an intern or some other lower level investigator took an interest in something like this and did a lot of the leg work, then something might get done...Other than that, it would take someone "important" to get burned for a lot of money in a major transaction before a D.A. or A.G. would take any interest...(Hope that makes sense...)...

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Leon,
Can you please explain why it would be hard to prosecute?
Hope you can shed some light to this.
Thx

I'm a bit incredulous to hear the "authorities" read these forums.

To answer your question though, it's "hard" because of the amount of work that would have to go into the investigation. I doubt the "authorities" consider ripping off a few G's from some collector's disposable income worth their time.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A trimmed, bleached, recolored, pressed card in a TPG slab of your choice.

Graded 8.5 from Joe Whateverhisnameis' Collection

[atx840]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I doubt the "authorities" consider ripping off a few G's from some collector's disposable income worth their time.

I've had the Department of Homeland Security pm & email about questionable cards I've spotted on here...it happens.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by atx840

I've had the Department of Homeland Security pm & email about questionable cards I've spotted on here...it happens.

I'm not saying that didn't happen but wow, really? Sports cards are a matter of "homeland security?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by atx840

I've had the Department of Homeland Security pm & email about questionable cards I've spotted on here...it happens.

Do they collect scrap and freaks?

[atx840]

I am Canadian after all...they have to keep a close eye on us.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'm a bit incredulous to hear the "authorities" read these forums.

Ignorance is bliss. They read it every single day...and more than one of them. Believe it or not, I am sure of it. I have personally spoken to the Secret Service, FBI, Postal Inspectors, Dept. Of Homeland Security, as well as local authorities in different areas, concerning the hobby and what goes on, on this board. Not this year, but the last 2-3 years the FBI had come to the Net54baseball Dinner at the National. It is always my pleasure to have them there. They were supposed to be there this year but couldn't make it at the last minute. We all should be very appreciative of them, especially the FBI.

As for prosecuting some of these things it's just too complicated as to why they have a tough time doing it but it is difficult. Even when there seemed to be an open and shut case with one of our board members against a known fraudster (trimmer), at the 12th hour, he had to let most of it go. All we can do is make things public and each try to do our part to keep the hobby as clean as we can.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't agree necessarily, Leon. A couple of people are convinced to talk and it starts tumbling down.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't agree necessarily, Leon. A couple of people are convinced to talk and it starts tumbling down.

What does that mean? What comes tumbling down?

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Leon

Ignorance is bliss. They read it every single day...and more than one of them. Believe it or not, I am sure of it. I have personally spoken to the Secret Service, FBI, Postal Inspectors, Dept. Of Homeland Security, as well as local authorities in different areas, concerning the hobby and what goes on, on this board. Not this year, but the last 2-3 years the FBI had come to the Net54baseball Dinner at the National. It is always my pleasure to have them there. They were supposed to be there this year but couldn't make it at the last minute. We all should be very appreciative of them, especially the FBI.

As for prosecuting some of these things it's just too complicated as to why they have a tough time doing it but it is difficult. Even when there seemed to be an open and shut case with one of our board members against a known fraudster (trimmer), at the 12th hour, he had to let most of it go. All we can do is make things public and each try to do our part to keep the hobby as clean as we can.

I'm not saying it never happened, it's just hard to believe. Especially considering the apparent zero impact their effort has had, in bringing anyone engaging fraud, to justice.

When we have stories detailing the people who engage in fraud being brought justice, then I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, it just seems like wasted effort by "authorities" who have too much free time on their hands, reading internet sports card forums.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

What does that mean? What comes tumbling down?

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'm not saying it never happened, it's just hard to believe. Especially considering the apparent zero impact their effort has had, in bringing anyone engaging fraud, to justice.

When we have stories detailing the people who engage in fraud being brought justice, then I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, it just seems like wasted effort by "authorities" who have too much free time on their hands, reading internet sports card forums.

So the 20 or so current Federal Indictments of people in the hobby don't count? Oh, and it's not that it happened (as for them reading the board and being in the hobby), it's still going on.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

Unfortunately I agree with most of this..

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Leon

So the 20 or so current Federal Indictments of people in the hobby don't count? Oh, and it's not that it happened (as for them reading the board and being in the hobby), it's still going on.

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

[RCMcKenzie]

When y'all said "authorities", I thought y'all were speaking about Mr. Lemke and Barry. The earliest memories I have of buying baseball cards are flea market dealers telling me that their ex/mt Ricky Henderson rookie card is in mint condition.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

This is EXACTLY what it will take to break this whole thing wide open. You have to bust one of the lower level minions, put the fear of God in them to get them talking, set up a sting...bingo, bango, bongo...

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

Yes, it goes in about 7 year cycles. We're overdue for a good housecleaning...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

What are you aware of? The cases I have been closest to are still in court but are getting closer. And there is almost a 100% chance there will be a/some convictions. Mastro tried to plea for 30 months and the judge wouldn't accept it at the time...this was several months ago. That case is still going on and I think a few others are sort of hinging on what happens there. I wouldn't be surprised if some more things happen too.

[Roofman4]

Very interesting thread. How does someone protect themselves from getting on the "hook" for altered / trimmed / restored cards? If you buy online, your taking your chances...correct? Would you attend shows and buy in person knowing you have the ability to closely inspect and measure the cards? I know I saw this topic in another thread, asking for the more experienced collectors to educate us novice guys. I'm all ears...

[PolarBear]

It's funny to me how similar this discussion is to the coin hobby, which I was part of for many years (years ago).

There are "coin doctors", who are apparently known in the hobby to many prominent people. However, no one seems to want to say who they are, or even if they do, and although the "authorities" seem to be on the case, no one ever seems to be brought to justice.

So again, it's nice to know the "authorities" are actively involved, but I'm skeptical that anything will actually be done about it.

The sports card hobby is about 20 years behind the coin hobby, and if the outcomes are the same, then don't expect anything meaningful to be done by the "authorities".

Education and Caveat Emptor are your best defense.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

It's funny to me how similar this discussion is to the coin hobby, which I was part of for many years (years ago).

There are "coin doctors", who are apparently known in the hobby to many prominent people. However, no one seems to want to say who they are, or even if they do, and although the "authorities" seem to be on the case, no one ever seems to be brought to justice.

So again, it's nice to know the "authorities" are actively involved, but I'm skeptical that anything will actually be done about it.

The sports card hobby is about 20 years behind the coin hobby, and if the outcomes are the same, then don't expect anything meaningful to be done by the "authorities".

Education and Caveat Emptor are your best defense.

You and Peter are correct. It's difficult ....

[slipk1068]

You all know the crooks are monitoring this site. They should be scared with the intense way you folks are investigating this stuff. Thank you for doing all you can to protect the hobby we love.

[drcy]

A difference between the coin hobby and the baseball hobby is baseball memorabilia collectors usually have baseball bats.

[slipk1068]

I am sure I will get slammed for this, but tell me what you think of this scenario:

Someone from Grading Company X is at the National in year 20xx and he meets someone from Grading Company Y at the bar. They both have close friends at their jobs. They get to talking and come up with an plan.

They keep a list of the serial numbers of some high end cards that they intentionally undergrade and are candidates for doctoring. Maybe they graded a Goudey Ruth a 6 that should have been a 7. Now, they have someone monitor auctions. If a card on their list comes to auction, someone they know buys it. It gets doctored and magically becomes an 8. It is an 8 because THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GRADE IT! They undergraded it originally, purchase it, doctor it, grade it a second time, then consign it.

Someone doctoring cards can make some money. Someone doctoring cards with the help of a couple insiders at a grading company and they can all make a lot of money. Someone doctoring cards with the help of a couple insiders at 2 grading companies and they can all make a fortune.

I have seen a lot of talk in this thread about card doctoring, some talk about incompetent graders, but what about collusion? Now, all you TPG defenders can start commenting on how whacky my conspiracy theory is.

[drcy]

But seriously, the word is 'provenance.' As in, "At the very least show me where you bought the card." Presumably an owner didn't purchase the card sight unseen. There was a scan and a description from before he owned it. At the very least. This is the computer age.

If someone offered you a Picasso painting, you'd say "Where'd you get that?" But many graded card collectors often don't care that a PSA 10 seemingly popped out of nowhere. They seem to have no interest in knowing, in asking, or even thinking about, where the card came from, what it looked like when the current owner bought it.

Would this simple provenance inquiry be a panacea to all ills? No. Would it be relevant to the cards talked about here? Obviously. It's shown in action when you post the before photos. The problem is it should have been the purchasers who are asking about the history. And I would suggest also the graders.

[barrysloate]

So I was speaking to a hobby buddy of mine yesterday, who reads this board (but doesn't post) and he asked a really provocative question: given how much bad stuff is out there, given that many card doctors are staying at least one step ahead of the graders, why are people still sinking such incredible amounts of money into this stuff?

And I need a better answer than stuff trumps all. Sure, good stuff may trump all, but nobody wants to sink money into trimmed, altered, and counterfeit material. Is it that only a small percentage of collectors know about this? Is it they trust TPG implicitly? Are they turning a blind eye? Do they believe that only the other guy's stuff is bad and they own only unadulterated material?

You would think that if this information was widely circulated, the market should collapse. And yet we regularly see enormous sums of money being spent on this high grade material. I'm sure somebody can figure this out.

My answer is that as long as the label reads "8", it's an "8." Case closed. But I think it's more than that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry there are all sorts of rationalizations people give for themselves.

1. I am careful, I can avoid or minimize the problem. (mine)
2. It doesn't affect what I collect.
3. The problem isn't nearly as widespread as the conspiracy theorists claim.
4. It's all speculation, there is no proof.
5. TPGs do well by my submissions therefore I trust them.
6. I don't believe the conspiracy theories about inside jobs, favoritism, etc.
7. If it's in a holder it has a defined value so what difference does it make anyhow.
8. I just want to enjoy my hobby so I choose to avoid all the negativity.