Unique Dave Davenport card (Herpolsheimer)

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Posted By: fkw

Here is an interesting card. I recently picked up the 1920 Herpolsheimer Dave Davenport card. The interesting thing is he is not found in any of the sets even slightly related to the Herplsheimer set. Davenport is not checklisted in E120, E121-80, E121-120, E122, E135, D327, W501, W575-1, M101-5, M101-4, Koester, etc. And these Herpolsheimer cards are said to be unique with do duplicates. So I guess this is the only Dave Davenport card out there. Of the 53 Herpolsheimer cards Ive seen listed this is the only player not found in the other related sets. Another thing about the Davenport card is his last year was 1919, helping to date the set to ca.1920. Frank

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Posted By: Paul

It looks to me like the publisher of the photos for these cards shopped them around one year (probably 1921) and found very few takers -- Herpolsheimer and Holsum bread. The following year, a few players were added, a few were deleted, and the American Caramel company decided to use the photos.

Davenport was one of the players dropped. Cicotte was apparently another. He is listed in Lemke's book for the Holsum bread set. I've heard that there's a Joe Jackson as well.

By the way, I think these cards are 1921, not 1920, because Maranville is listed with Pittsburgh. He wasn't with that team until 1921. I'm not sure how soon after the 1920 season Cicotte was banned from the game. If he was banned immediately, then it's a little difficult to explain why he was included in the Holsum set. Perhaps the Holsum cards are 1920 and the Herpolsheimers are 1921.

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Posted By: fkw

Your right on the Maranville 1921 date. He was traded Feb. 23 1921 to Pittsburgh from BostonNL. Im changing the Herpolsheimer date back to 1921 Frank

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Paul--Was Maranville shown on Boston in the Holsum set? Is that why you think Holsum was 1920 and Herpolsheimer 1921?

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Posted By: Scott

...should we all "pull out our Herpolsheimers" and show them?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Paul,

The Holsum Jackson definitely exists. There was one on Ebay a couple of years ago, and Levi Bleam won it. He may still have it.

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Posted By: Anonymous

how's about that herpo ruth for sale on ebay right now?!?!?! Pretty nice eh!

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

I was bidding on that one too--trying to sneak it past the unsuspecting crowd. I'm glad you posted, as I wanted to contact the winning bidder, but it was a private auction. Can you tell us if the gloss is the same as is found on the E121s? I handled a Frank Gilhooley card somewhat similar a few years back that had a Henry A Johnson back, and it had a duller surface. How is it with Mr. Davenport/
Todd

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Posted By: Tim N

Hi everyone--

I haven't been doing much here lately, probably missed some great posts like this one. I actually have that Davenport card too, but mine has a Standard Biscuit back. It looks like both these Standard Biscuit and Herpolshimer sets are using the same poses in an E135 style size and design--

I too have wondered about the date of issue for these E135-style sets. Lemke lists the Standard B. set but doesn't give a checklist. He dates it as 1916. Does anyone have evidence that confirms or disconfirms that?

Frank, is your Herpolshimer card from the ones recently sold on ebay by the Michigan seller? What did the board conclude about those cards? Are thay a genuine find?

Cheers all,

Tim

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Posted By: fkw

The Herpolsheimer cards are authentic, I have about 10 now. There are no redflags on the authenticity, same paper, print, ink, cropping, surface, font, wear, edges, as all the other E121 style cards. The only difference I noticed is they are slightly different in size (machine cutting) from some of the other sets.

On a side note, I did a search on the internet and came up with this picture (below) of the C.Williams card, its said to be a D327 Holsum card (ca.1920). Thats why some collectors (me included) think the Holsum set is the first set made with this E121 style design. I think they are from 1920 while the others are from 1921-22. Ive seen photos of the Joe Jackson and C. Williams, and the Cicotte is checklisted in the 2005 SCD (page 171).


Can anyone add to my list of known Holsum cards (name/team). Ive only been keeping track of them for a little over 2 years and have 17 total. Frank



Dave Bancroft New York NL 1920-1923
Jack Barry Philadelphia AL 1908-1915
Ping Bodie Washington AL (never played for them)
Eddie Cicotte Chicago AL 1913-1920
Charles Deal Chiacgo NL 1917-1921
Urban Faber Chicago AL 1914-1933
Joe Jackson Chicago AL 1916-1920
John Lavan St.Louis NL 1919-1924
Al Mamaux Brooklyn NL 1918-1923
Otto Miller Brooklyn NL 1910-1922
Guy Morton unknown
Steve O'Neill unknown
Jeff Pfeffer Brooklyn NL 1913-1921
George Sisler unknown
J.Carlisle Smith unknown
Zack Wheat unknown
Claude Williams Chicago AL 1916-1920

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I inquired about it a few months ago, after seeing it in a PSA slab on his website. He told me it is not for sale right now (now, was a few months ago). Haven't checked with him lately about it however.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

There was a group of Holsum cards in the last Mastro Collectors Classics auction. I don't remember all of the cards, but I do remember that there was a Hornsby in the lot.

If my memory serves me right, Levi got an amazing deal on that Jackson. I think it sold for something like $700 or $1,000, probably because they were not cataloged at the time. I know that I wasn't sure what it was, or if it was authentic, since it looked like an E135 that was missing the card number.

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Posted By: fkw

Andy I seem to remember the same thing about that auction, that the Holsum Jackson was a mystery card (why in the set), and that some thought it wasnt real. I wasnt much into the Holsum cards and E121 style back variations back then, but your story did ring a bell. I think there may have been talk about it in some of the early message boards from a few years back. That D327 Jackson was one of the best eBay pickups ever, looking back at it now that its getting a little clearer that other Black Soxs are known in Holsum. Now where is the Herpolsheimer Joe Jackson??? Frank

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Posted By: Glen V

Mastro didn't print detailed descriptions in the Classic Collector catalog. Lot 225 was 23 Holsums w/ 4 HOFers and Ray Chapman. Any way to look up previous auctions and get more details?

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Posted By: fkw

Hi Tim, What Standard Biscuit back variation does your Dave Davenport have?

Here are some pics of the different ones. Frank

L to R M101-4/5 style, E135 style, E121 style "80 to the set.", E121 style "80 photographs."

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Posted By: Paul

Didn't mean to ignore Jay's question. I've been off line for awhile.

I haven't seen or heard of a Holsum Maranville, so I don't know if he's shown with Boston or not, or if it even exists. I was guessing 1920 for the Holsums just because of the Black Sox that are known in the set.

The Jack Barry the Frank listed sounds like a real mystery. He is listed with a team he last played for in 1915. But many of the other cards show players with teams that they did not start playing for until much later. The Barry card may just be one of those unsolveable mysteries, like the M101-5 Frank Chance, listed as the Cubs' first baseman, long after he was traded from the Cubs and even after he stopped playing first base.

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Posted By: leon

I have a Holsum Bread Hornsby sgc50 ...I'l have to check the team later........regards

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Posted By: Scott

What are opinions on the value of this card? $5K surprises me...perhaps the seller is going for the jugular with a high opener and a shill.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5154882831&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

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Posted By: pete

5k is a lot but doesn't seem high relative to book value and scarcity. This is same seller who has been selling herp cards the last few months or so and they are supposedly authentic...according to many forum members. If only a few exist...if that many...I'd say it's worth a lot more than 5k?!?!?

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Posted By: pete

wow...the herpo ruth sold for $7777 or something like that. Still seems like a pretty shrewd buy if it slabs!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Andy Cook

There are many Holsum Bread cards that are not on the e121 checklist. I have two different poses of Amos Strunk in Holsum Bread - one pose matches his E135 and one matches his E121. I've had several others in the past that were only in E135 and not in E121.

Andy

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Posted By: fkw

Hi Andy, What team are the 2 Strunk Holsum cards pictured with? Both A's? Or maybe the Redsox or Whitesox? He jumped aroud a bit from 1918-1921. Frank

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Posted By: Andy Cook

Frank, the two Holsum Amos Strunk cards both show him as a White Sox, however both show his position as R.F.. His E121-80 shows his position as C.F.. Another interesting point is the Holsum of him in a standing pose (similar to E135) has the caption "R.F.-Chicago White Sox". His Holsum with the same pose as E121-80 has a caption "Chicago Americans". Third interesting point is that the two Holsum ad backs are slightly different. Conclusion: there may be two different Holsum series. I've had about 15 Holsums, and I've had several with each different ad back. Last point, I also have a Gassler's Bread of Strunk, same pose and caption as E121-80 "C.F.-Chicago Americans". Sounds like an OC article....

Andy

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Posted By: Tim N

Hi Frank--

Sorry to be slow getting back to you. My Davenport card has the back that is third from the left in your scan--

Tim

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Posted By: pete

I WONDER WHEN THE HERPOLSHEIMER RUTH THAT JUST SOLD ON EBAY WILL SHOW UP ON THIS SITE SLABBED!!!!!!!!!!!!!