Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Eric72

It's not surprising to see you write this.

And it's not surprising to see a bunch of boomers in here screaming at clouds again. Like it or not, cleaning a baseball card is not a crime, and it's also allowed by every single TPG. The majority of vintage cards that have any sort of eye appeal at all have been cleaned. If you aren't OK with that, then you should just sell your collection right now, because nobody else cares. In fact most collectors would prefer them cleaned.

[bmattioli]

Comics are cleaned and pressed all the time..

[vintagerookies51]

Yeah, not sure if we’re supposed to be upset about this? As far as I’m concerned, it’s removing stuff that got there after the card was made, making it even closer to its original authentic state. Cool stuff

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

And it's not surprising to see a bunch of boomers in here screaming at clouds again. Like it or not, cleaning a baseball card is not a crime, and it's also allowed by every single TPG. The majority of vintage cards that have any sort of eye appeal at all have been cleaned. If you aren't OK with that, then you should just sell your collection right now, because nobody else cares. In fact most collectors would prefer them cleaned.

1. I'm not a boomer, though there are some on here.
2. I'm not screaming at anything, so I'm not sure to whom you were referring.
3. Yes, I'm aware cleaning a card is not criminal behavior.
4. I doubt "every single TPG" allows cleaning. They're not always able to detect it, though.
5. How would you know what the majority of vintage cards have been through?
6. I'm not selling anything just because of something written by a snowman on a message board
7. I doubt most collectors of vintage material would prefer their cards cleaned. Someone should start a poll on here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd like to know what is in these allegedly natural proprietary solutions this dude is using and selling. And no, I don't want cards cleaned in them, but realistically it's probably hard to detect unless something like bleach or the equivalent is used to create an artificially bright appearance.

The prevailing ethos may well be moving towards the comics model where a lot of things are acceptable.

[campyfan39]

Once grading got involved in was inevitable.
We will see lots of people able to get out major creases, ink etc. and nobody ever know. I don't necessarily have a problem with it. That's probably because I don't have cards graded.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'd like to know what is in these allegedly natural proprietary solutions this dude is using and selling. And no, I don't want cards cleaned in them, but realistically it's probably hard to detect unless something like bleach or the equivalent is used to create an artificially bright appearance.

The prevailing ethos may well be moving towards the comics model where a lot of things are acceptable.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

Once grading got involved in was inevitable.
We will see lots of people able to get out major creases, ink etc. and nobody ever know. I don't necessarily have a problem with it. That's probably because I don't have cards graded.

If you think this wasn’t going on long.before grading became the norm you are a fool. It existed before PSA was a company by many many years and was a big reason PSA was able to gain some traction. Yes I get the Wagner was trimmed. That card should never have been graded but it was and that was wrong but at the same time from a business perspective it wasn’t and would have been slabbed at that time by any company that existed. Right or wrong. But thinking card doctoring is somehow a product of card grading is truly asinine thinking. As for this card in the og post if it is just water I have no issue with soaking if it’s chemicals it’s wrong but people will do it anyways.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by glynparson

If you think this wasn’t going on long.before grading became the norm you are a fool. It existed before PSA was a company by many many years and was a big reason PSA was able to gain some traction. Yes I get the Wagner was trimmed. That card should never have been graded but it was and that was wrong but at the same time from a business perspective it wasn’t and would have been slabbed at that time by any company that existed. Right or wrong. But thinking card doctoring is somehow a product of card grading is truly asinine thinking. As for this card in the og post if it is just water I have no issue with soaking if it’s chemicals it’s wrong but people will do it anyways.

Trying to deflect from the simple and obvious fact that getting cards into higher grade slabs to make $$$ is the primary driver of card alterations is asinine.

Nobody believes 0 cards were altered before PSA. The grading game is quite obviously the driver for the situation being discussed and which presently exists in the hobby.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Trying to deflect from the simple and obvious fact that getting cards into higher grade slabs to make $$$ is the primary driver of card alterations is asinine.

Even if making money is the primary motivation for cleaning cards to some people, who cares? (it's certainly not for me, as I even clean $1 commons if it's a card I just want to look nicer for my set - and I promise you, there's no money in that). My motivation for cleaning my cards is the same motivation for me only wanting centered cards: I have OCD.

But even for those who earn money by cleaning cards, who cares? People earn money by cleaning all sorts of things. It's not fraud just because YOU (or whoever) don't like it.

The only reason people are capable of making stupid money by improving a card's condition is because there are idiots out there that will pay stupid money for it. Don't be that stupid buyer if you don't like how the game is played. But this is how it's played whether you like it or not.

My favorite condition for a card is a 4 or a 5. I don't play the stupid prices game. And I can clean my cards myself if I don't like how they look. I'm not paying someone else to turn a 2 into a 4 for me.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by glynparson

If you think this wasn’t going on long.before grading became the norm you are a fool. It existed before PSA was a company by many many years and was a big reason PSA was able to gain some traction. Yes I get the Wagner was trimmed. That card should never have been graded but it was and that was wrong but at the same time from a business perspective it wasn’t and would have been slabbed at that time by any company that existed. Right or wrong. But thinking card doctoring is somehow a product of card grading is truly asinine thinking. As for this card in the og post if it is just water I have no issue with soaking if it’s chemicals it’s wrong but people will do it anyways.

This idea that water is OK but "chemicals" aren't doesn't much make sense to me. People like to joke that water is a chemical (dihydrogen monoxide), but it's not just a joke or really even semantics. Water is indeed a chemical, so I don't know what you're talking about when you say that chemicals shouldn't be used but water is OK. It seems to me that the more relevant question is whether or not whatever is used on a card causes damage and/or leaves behind some sort of residue on the card. Water does not, so it's OK to use. I don't know what else is in Kurt's Card spray, but whatever it is clearly isn't damaging cards and doesn't leave behind a residue because thousands of cards are being sent to the TPGs every day from submitters who use it (literally thousands) and none of them are being rejected because there's nothing on it to reject. And this isn't just because people are slipping them past some noobie graders and getting lucky. We're talking about the best graders at every TPG grading ultra high-end cards. Guys like Reza and Scott Hileman. These guys know what they're doing. They're the best of the best. The most experienced graders we have. These cards aren't "sneaking by them" because they're incompetent. They're being given numeric grades because the cards have not been altered. They're being graded because they deserve numeric grades. Cleaning a card correctly does not alter it any more than cleaning your car alters it. There's nothing there to detect. Unlike fingerprint oils and decades of grime, which very much do alter the card. It always cracks me up whenever I see a massive red wine or coffee stain on a card with a numeric grade, as if that card stock hasn't been altered. Those cards will degrade much quicker than other cards in the same grade without stains, yet nobody complains about that?

At the end of the day, as long as you're not adding to or taking away from the card itself, then you can't say it was altered. Not the actual card itself. Someone got gunk or grime on the card and someone else safely removed it. The card behind that gunk and grime was left fully intact and undisturbed. This is an absolute nothing burger.

Nobody cares except for some small vocal minority on message boards and a social media. This isn't a battle worth fighting. You can't win it. Just accept it or move on to another hobby (where cleaning of collectibles in that hobby will surely also be widely accepted).

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This idea that water is OK but "chemicals" aren't doesn't much make sense to me. People like to joke that water is a chemical (dihydrogen monoxide), but it's not just a joke or really even semantics. Water is indeed a chemical, so I don't know what you're talking about when you say that chemicals shouldn't be used but water is OK. It seems to me that the more relevant question is whether or not whatever is used on a card causes damage and/or leaves behind some sort of residue on the card. Water does not, so it's OK to use. I don't know what else is in Kurt's Card spray, but whatever it is clearly isn't damaging cards and doesn't leave behind a residue because thousands of cards are being sent to the TPGs every day from submitters who use it (literally thousands) and none of them are being rejected because there's nothing on it to reject. And this isn't just because people are slipping them past some noobie graders and getting lucky. We're talking about the best graders at every TPG grading ultra high-end cards. Guys like Reza and Scott Hileman. These guys know what they're doing. They're the best of the best. The most experienced graders we have. These cards aren't "sneaking by them" because they're incompetent. They're being given numeric grades because the cards have not been altered. They're being graded because they deserve numeric grades. Cleaning a card correctly does not alter it any more than cleaning your car alters it. There's nothing there to detect. Unlike fingerprint oils and decades of grime, which very much do alter the card. It always cracks me up whenever I see a massive red wine or coffee stain on a card with a numeric grade, as if that card stock hasn't been altered. Those cards will degrade much quicker than other cards in the same grade without stains, yet nobody complains about that?

At the end of the day, as long as you're not adding to or taking away from the card itself, then you can't say it was altered. Not the actual card itself. Someone got gunk or grime on the card and someone else safely removed it. The card behind that gunk and grime was left fully intact and undisturbed. This is an absolute nothing burger.

Nobody cares except for some small vocal minority on message boards and a social media. This isn't a battle worth fighting. You can't win it. Just accept it or move on to another hobby (where cleaning of collectibles in that hobby will surely also be widely accepted).

Well stated and reasoned.

[campyfan39]

Sorry if I struck a nerve. I am neither a "fool" nor an "asinine" thinker. I am also not new to the hobby as I have been going to shows since the mid 80's. I am extremely close with many dealers including hobby legend Uncle Dick DeCourcey who treats me like a nephew. I also interviewed Kit Young and Dr. Beckett and others for the book I wrote about a decade ago.

I realize things went on before grading. It was mainly trimming, pressing corners and adding color. One of Kurt's videos is fascinating as he removed red ink, a true alteration, from a 1953 Mantle (my favorite set). So grading has limited some of those alterations which is the grading companies singular positive contribution to the hobby IMHO. Yet they still grade cards that are trimmed as has been pointed out on this board many times.

I do not believe cleaning cards and soaking was as wide spread as it is now. With social media and videos like Kurt's and forums like this people are learning about it and seeing examples of how it works. I for one have not ever used one of Kurts "products" and I have yet to get up the nerve to soak a single card (though I may try a base card soon for fun).

What I find truly striking about your post is that you recognize the Wagner was trimmed and assert it "should not have been graded but it was and that was wrong." Then you make an incredible statement and say "but at the same time from a business perspective it wasn’t and would have been slabbed at that time by any company that existed. Right or wrong".

So even though a card had been clearly altered and at least one of the graders has admitted (in the book and the 30 for 30) that he knew it, that was ok from a business perspective? So it is horrible to use substances to clean cards or improve creases but its fine to grade a card that should have been labeled "Altered" for business purposes? Yikes! He knew that it would kill PSA if they rejected that card. So for money they essentially lied. Not to mention the hundreds of millions made since for the company and the trimmed card itself.

If you don't think grading and the registry is the main driving force in why this has become so wide spread then I don't know what to say. It is not "asanine thinking" it is instead basic logic and supply and demand.

Originally Posted by glynparson

If you think this wasn’t going on long.before grading became the norm you are a fool. It existed before PSA was a company by many many years and was a big reason PSA was able to gain some traction. Yes I get the Wagner was trimmed. That card should never have been graded but it was and that was wrong but at the same time from a business perspective it wasn’t and would have been slabbed at that time by any company that existed. Right or wrong. But thinking card doctoring is somehow a product of card grading is truly asinine thinking. As for this card in the og post if it is just water I have no issue with soaking if it’s chemicals it’s wrong but people will do it anyways.

[steve B]

AS far as paper and the use of water goes.

I believe both groups are partly correct.

One of the things that makes paper work, especially in wood pulp based paper is that the original maceration to produce the fibers also dissolves or partly dissolves the lignin that holds the cellulose fibers together.
During drying, that lignin solidifies.

This is the same as the process for steaming and bending wood.

It's more complicated than that, since there's some bonding between sugars that are part of the cellulose, and other things besides just lignin.


So soaking to remove a crease as this guy does is basically re dissolving the lignins and probably breaking the sugar bonds between the fibers. The fiber length which affects the density and strength of the paper was probably changed within the crease.
That softening allows what is essentially remaking the paper in the crease.

The chemistry - that there is cellulose fibers bonding and lignin as a sort of "glue" as well, does not change.
The fibers in the repaired area do get rearranged.

Enough soaking might change how much lignin is present. Less will tend to make the paper weaker.
In modern papers, there may be additives or a higher cotton fiber content to slow the Lignin degrading which helps form acid that will eventually ruin the paper. Soaking something like and 86 fleer basketball card might remove some of these additives.

The chemistry in most cases probably doesn't change enough to make a difference, but since some lignin or other binders will always be lost it does change.


I don't disagree with a light surface cleaning with water, a few decades of gunk accumulated from just ordinary air exposure is probably best removed.*
Trying to flatten a dinged corner so it doesn't get worse? Yeah, we've probably all done that. Using water and tools so that dinged corner gets overlooked by graders? Probably not as many.


*I've done this to a couple cards, less than 5 and I'm entirely open about which ones. One literally had soot deposits that were into the cracks in the surface coating. another had soot on the reverse. Neither cleaned up all that well.One was fine, the other ended up with back damage. Another soaked card was used to show how water and pressure can't cause an offset transfer, wood grain from the pressing got pressed into the card, and last I checked was still present. (Relax, it's a T206 common in F-G condition. It's not much worse than before.)

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

So even though a card had been clearly altered and at least one of the graders has admitted (in the book and the 30 for 30) that he knew it, that was ok from a business perspective? So it is horrible to use substances to clean cards or improve creases but its fine to grade a card that should have been labeled "Altered" for business purposes? Yikes! He knew that it would kill PSA if they rejected that card. So for money they essentially lied. Not to mention the hundreds of millions made since for the company and the trimmed card itself.

Agreed this is wonky logic. If the "good for the hobby" argument that was used (depending on who you believe) when, wink wink, David Hall and others at PSA in the early 90's gave the Wagner they knew was trimmed an 8 assumes that profiting from such skulduggery is what makes it "good" - then nobody today should have any problem with any type of restoration or alteration so that all vintage cards can then be resubbed and get 8's and higher, and be sold at wildly higher prices.

Clearly this isn't the case.

Ironic to think - professional grading ostensibly came about because of the problems with card doctoring and the "wild west" scene in collecting 30+ years ago. Today however, due to the profit motive and ability to get such cards into high grade slabs anyway - the main driver that keeps alteration prevalent turns out to also be grading.

[G1911]

Kurts has done far more than this. I've seen their crease/dent/corner fixes on the Discords. I get that we want to separate water from chemicals but what, half this board has done basically the same thing that's in this particular video?

Obviously it is not a crime to alter a card and nobody thinks it is - selling it while covering that up and not disclosing the truth can be.

Of course, this problem all goes away if people just stop playing the game. At least half the people on the anti-alteration side seem to collect and pay premiums for PSA, SGC, et al. As long as we have incompetent graders founded on the myth of an altered card, and most people paying far more money for a made up higher number on their slab than a similarly made up lower one, this is the inevitable result. If folks stopped playing this stupid game, there wouldn't be so many stupid prizes. The game will continue as long as the vast majority are playing this game when they vote with their wallets, if not the mouth.

I am more bothered by the grading companies completely lying about the grade to juice a card (see the last BN Ruth, the 9.5 Mantle, that recent T206 Wagner, etc.) or changing grades for certain submitters and former employees than I am that they cannot tell what is altered and don't put much value on improving that situation.

And that's why I have stacks of raw cards with creases and stains and boogers laying around my desk. If someone has removed a crease, they got nothing out of doing it and it doesn't affect me any.

[jchcollins]

I can understand those on the side of concluding that Kurt is altering cards, but in reality the "spray" (his other product, the polish - is not for vintage cards) is quick evaporating, and doesn't leave anything detectable on the cards. It just doesn't.

I bought some last year just out of morbid curiosity; not because I was interested in starting a card doctoring business. The spray is described as a "lubricant" by Kurt, and he claims it's all natural. Beyond that of course, he won't say what it is. It's not water, but it also doesn't smell overly chemical. I had moderate success with removing wrinkles (on lower grade vintage common cards in my PC), and more with things like making crunched corners sharp again - and in the end decided that while novel and certainly interesting, a future in using Kurt's products - even if only on my own cards - wasn't for me.

Just my two cents - but Kurt's methods are a sideshow right now, and very much a moot point when you have the top grading companies that cannot detect real alteration - trimming and other more heinous type things in many cases on expensive vintage cards. If the Gary Mosers of the world can get much worse stuff by PSA, then going after someone like Kurt - yes even if you consider it alteration - is going to be a huge waste of time. Another of his recommended tricks which involves putting a card in a humidor really does only use water - and under the right conditions - I would imagine a dent or wrinkle could also be removed from a card with humidity by accident in an attic or something. I don't see how anyone could claim that is alteration - although it's yet to be seen on a lot of those I think if the problem would somehow later "come back." But hey, some 1974 Kellogg's cards in PSA 10 slabs get exposed to temperature and humidity and wind up cracking later in the slab. They're still PSA 10's, right?

This debate will go on, but I would agree that current sentiment in the hobby may see things like some forms of out-of-the-closet restoration become acceptable. Again, I totally agree with the right of those who think it's wrong to hold their own opinions. As with many other things however, sometimes you can't do anything about it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I can understand those on the side of concluding that Kurt is altering cards, but in reality the "spray" (his other product, the polish - is not for vintage cards) is quick evaporating, and doesn't leave anything detectable on the cards. It just doesn't.

I bought some last year just out of morbid curiosity; not because I was interested in starting a card doctoring business. The spray is described as a "lubricant" by Kurt, and he claims it's all natural. Beyond that of course, he won't say what it is. It's not water, but it also doesn't smell overly chemical. I had moderate success with removing wrinkles (on lower grade vintage common cards in my PC), and more with things like making crunched corners sharp again - and in the end decided that while novel and certainly interesting, a future in using Kurt's products - even if only on my own cards - wasn't for me.

Just my two cents - but Kurt's methods are a sideshow right now, and very much a moot point when you have the top grading companies that cannot detect real alteration - trimming and other more heinous type things in many cases on expensive vintage cards. If the Gary Mosers of the world can get much worse stuff by PSA, then going after someone like Kurt - yes even if you consider it alteration - is going to be a huge waste of time. Another of his recommended tricks which involves putting a card in a humidor really does only use water - and under the right conditions - I would imagine a dent or wrinkle could also be removed from a card with humidity by accident in an attic or something. I don't see how anyone could claim that is alteration - although it's yet to be seen on a lot of those I think if the problem would somehow later "come back." But hey, some Kellogg's cards in PSA 10 slabs get exposed to temperature and humidity and wind up cracking later in the slab. They're still PSA 10's, right?

This debate will go on, but I would agree that current sentiment in the hobby may see things like some forms of out-of-the-closet restoration become acceptable. Again, I totally agree with the right of those who think it's wrong to hold their own opinions. As with many other things however, sometimes you can't do anything about it.

No one is going after the trimmers of the world either. Just buying their cards. Or taking them on consignment. They won. Long live the flip.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No one is going after the trimmers of the world either. Just buying their cards. Or taking them on consignment. They won. Long live the flip.

I just meant going after them here. I respect the main board opinions, lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ejharrington]

Water is a chemical. I don't see how dropping a piece of cardboard in water doesn't alter the chemistry of the card. Looking at the before and after photos of the front of the card, the after photo is less vibrant, higher grade notwithstanding.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Water is a chemical. I don't see how dropping a piece of cardboard in water doesn't alter the chemistry of the card. Looking at the before and after photos of the front of the card, the after photo is less vibrant, higher grade notwithstanding.

You can't look at two pictures of a card taken at different times with different settings on different equipment and determine anything about changes in color.

Kurt's card spray doesn't affect the color of a card at all (it's mostly distilled water). Neither does dihydrogen monoxide.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

Soaking a card in water changes the moisture content.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You can't look at two pictures of a card taken at different times with different settings on different equipment and determine anything about changes in color.

Kurt's card spray doesn't affect the color of a card at all (it's mostly distilled water). Neither does dihydrogen monoxide.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

Do you use his products? Sounds like you have first hand knowledge.

[campyfan39]

This thread is fascinating and I hope it keeps going. I didn't know some of the stuff on his videos was even possible. This guy could literally make a living submitting cards he fixed. He has a surgeon's hand and the patience of Job! No way I have ether of those.

The best post on here IMO is the one I quoted part of. If people stopped participating in the pecker measuring contests (aka the registrys) then there would be no conversations about any of this.

Originally Posted by G1911

Of course, this problem all goes away if people just stop playing the game. At least half the people on the anti-alteration side seem to collect and pay premiums for PSA, SGC, et al. As long as we have incompetent graders founded on the myth of an altered card, and most people paying far more money for a made up higher number on their slab than a similarly made up lower one, this is the inevitable result. If folks stopped playing this stupid game, there wouldn't be so many stupid prizes. The game will continue as long as the vast majority are playing this game when they vote with their wallets, if not the mouth.

I am more bothered by the grading companies completely lying about the grade to juice a card (see the last BN Ruth, the 9.5 Mantle, that recent T206 Wagner, etc.) or changing grades for certain submitters and former employees than I am that they cannot tell what is altered and don't put much value on improving that situation.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Snowman

...and it's also allowed by every single TPG...

The opinion sellers allow anything as long as they get paid.