REA BL 460 Discussion

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Posted By: Scott Levy

As a rare back enthusiast and someone contemplating the BL 460 PSA 6 lot I'm caught in a quandry and would love some others opinions.

This card does look slim on the sides. While I've certainly seen my short of legitimately short cards top to bottom, what are people's thoughts about a BL 460 being short side to side?

Does anyone think that this is a legit card or is the consensus that it's one that slipped by PSA. Also, what is the latest about their re-exam? Did they confirm again the legitimacy or simply say what we said before is what goes?

Thoughts are very welcome here!!

Thanks,
Scott

Edited to include link ... it is lot #198
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/default.aspx

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Posted By: peter ullman

It looks like it was cut to fit in an american beauty pack to me! It's definitely thin...whether born that way or plastied...I'm not sure.

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Posted By: John

Scott;

If it helps at all this card is trimmed IMO AUTH a best not a PSA 6 but kudos to the person who got it in a holder, now not a $500-1000 card but a multi thousand dollar card., it was even listed and sold several years ago raw on ebay from a seller who could of easily had the card graded. In fact this seller even mentioned it was short, he sold this card and a General baking Cobb the same week.



It does appear the card has been cleaned up a bit as well, but the remains of the earlier stains are still there. Here’s the pics hope this helps.

John

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Posted By: barry arnold

Scott,
It does look critically short side to side.
It is a beaut but this issue, sadly, would make me not bid.

all the best,
barry

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Posted By: Jay

Jim Crandell, calling Jim Crandell. Please report to this thread.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"Also, what is the latest about their re-exam? Did they confirm again the legitimacy or simply say what we said before is what goes?"

I thought we've established, at least for the PSA HOFers, that the motto upon resubmission is "Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil."

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A difficult back to locate... and it looks real. Real and trimmed. The card doesn't look wide enough to me either, and then, when I look at the corners while thinking the sides have been trimmed it makes me think the top and bottom got a shave, too. It must have been a big card at one time.

What I trouble understanding is that because it is in a slab it is worth so much more... Surely anyone with enough money to buy that card is sufficiently intelligent to look at the card, not the holder, and bid less than would be reasonable if the card was untrimmed. I can see that the slab would help a bit. But how can the slab completely override the card's evident trimming? Might as well paint the middle section of the slab, front and back. Because after all, it doesn't matter what is inside the slab, the label is all that matters.



***** Please see my post 13 hours down this thread *****

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Posted By: Rob

i'd resubmit the card for a 1/2 grade bump!

Rob

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

exposing things that may not be true and it were just the way it was cut...isthis fair to a consignor who has done nothing wrong and wants his just due for parting with his/her treasure ?

Iam not a rare back collector and I do not know who this belongs to ,but I wouldnt be happy if I were counting on kids lunch money for the next 5 months and I get a bologna sammitch out of the deal.

El Principe DeGales I think are just a wee smaller then your avg Sc or Piedmont,I had about 20 or so graded at one time and found this true.Not sure on BL460 never owned one to size up.

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Posted By: Sean BH

I assume the consignor knows it's trimmed (otherwise he would have sold it elsewhere).

In the description it reads:

"In our opinion, this card has been very slightly trimmed, though someone else could have a different opinion. Whether this card belongs in a PSA 6 holder (as purchased by our consignor, and resent to PSA for a second review for confirmation) or an "Authentic" holder as we believe,"

sdbh

edit in quote marks

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Posted By: Matt

I think it speaks volumes that REA put that in the item description.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i was on the phone with a friend last night, who intends to bid on said card (i already have a BL 460, so i have no desire to bid). he said if he wins it, he intends to have it re-evaluated again, and if absolutely deemed "trimmed" (which he, like many, believes it is), he WANTS it taken out of the "6" holder and properly slabbed as "authentic".

many people "talk" about "cleaning-up the hobby"...but IMO, that's called stepping-up to the plate and making it happen...

edited to add: on a similar note, i have to also applaude The Levy's for sending the infamous T206 Red Cobb Drum back to PSA and taking it out of circulation.

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Posted By: Sean BH

It's still a nice looking card for "possibly being trimmed" and would look great in a SGC holder. If your friend wins it that would be pretty honorable to have it regraded and take the possible authentic.

It's sad to think that someone probably had a 4 or 5 but was greedy and trimmed it.

sdbh

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Posted By: barrysloate

Michael- that's interesting, because the cost of a BL460 in PSA 6, versus the same card graded Authentic, is thousands of dollars. I greatly respect the person willing to do this, but that's a big financial hit for almost anyone.

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Posted By: Sean BH

I'm sure a few people can look past the card and see the PSA 6 flashing out and forget about it being trimmed.

sdbh

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Posted By: Matt

Michael - is your friend willing to pay '6' money for it?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

my friend, is on this board...i'll let him chime-in if he decides to.

i know he is not willing to pay "6" money for it...not sure anyone is, really.

we'll see what happens.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The difference between a bona fide 6 and an Auth is about as wide as the grand canyon.

For example, a T206 HOFer in a 6 is worth around $500. The same card in an Auth holder is worth about a tenth of that (using round numbers).

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Posted By: MVSNYC

true barry, but that is apples & oranges...

a Broad Leaf 460 is on a different playing field then a regular-back Joe Tinker...

even low-grade/trimmed BL 460's will command a decent amount. they are so rare.

there will obviously be a nice size gap between an AUTH example and a true "6", but i think the difference between said grades would be much greater on the Tinker example.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You're correct..the gap narrows with a rarity.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"exposing things that may not be true and it were just the way it was cut...isthis fair to a consignor who has done nothing wrong and wants his just due for parting with his/her treasure ?

Iam not a rare back collector and I do not know who this belongs to ,but I wouldnt be happy if I were counting on kids lunch money for the next 5 months and I get a bologna sammitch out of the deal."

Dan, suppose on the other hand what is being pointed out is true? Certainly the fact that REA, as experienced as any auction house in this hobby and expert in detecting trims, feels obligated to put perspective bidders on notice that in their opinion the card is trimmed, that has to raise serious questions whether PSA missed this one. And, as has been mentioned, whether or not the card is altered will have a material impact on its value. How then can this situation not be exposed? Would that be fair to a good faith purchaser who, say, is investing his kids college tuition money in baseball cards?

I don't think anybody here is saying the consignor has done anything wrong. To the contrary, inasmuch as I have little doubt he/she could have found an auction house to sell the card without the REA disclosure, he/she comes across as an honest individual not looking to defraud anybody.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I didnt know that was in the description. WIth that being said my earlier post is w/o example. Sorry.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I disagree with my very good friend Robbie Lifson on this one. I have owned a half dozen BL 460s and all were thin. My current one in my set is thin as well. I could be wrong, well very doubtful, but I think all BL 460s are thin. Then again, maybe just the 10 to 12 I have owned have all been trimmed. Dan.

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Posted By: peter ullman

interesting Dan...I've never owned one so I wouldn't know. Are BL 350's typically thinner? I can't imagine they are.

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Posted By: dan mckee

No Peter, I only saw this in the BL 460s. I discussed this with Robbie but he trumped me hence his description. Robbie is as knowledgable as anyone in the hobby and I respect him beyond recognition but I just happen to disagree with him on this one. I know, I am defending a PSA graded card. But for me, I try to look at it as if it isn't graded and I truly think it is good. I will be bidding on it as well. Dan.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Having read Dan McKee's posts, I have to retract what I posted above.

I've not held a Broadleaf 460. I've seen a Broadleaf card, but I don't recall it being thinner than regular white border tobacco cards. I can envision that a Broadleaf 460 could be thinner than the regular cards, similar to the thinner American Beauty cards. (Although I'd think all Broadleaf white border cards would measure the same, would there be a size differential among the various series?)

It is my impression that Dan knows a right smart about old cards, and if Dan says his Broadleaf 460s have all been thinner than normal cards and that that is how they are, then I'm inclined to believe him.

Maybe we need all Broadleaf 460s out there scanned with a ruler behind them so we can ascertain width.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Dan Mckee- very interesting observation...as others said, i really value your opinion, you just might be onto something...

i'm holding my example in my hand (Stahl, glove shows, PSA AUTH)...it's very clean, it has a slight "nick" trimmed off the top edge. it is full width, when held a certain way, looks like it "might" be slightly handcut...

i'll try to post scans tomorrow.

MS

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Posted By: JimB

I would love to see scans of as many BL 460s as are out there. Thanks to those who post 'em. Dan, very interesting point.
JimB

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Posted By: Trae R.

Jim, here are the scans I've collected over the years.


























---
"There ain't much to being a ballplayer, if you're a ballplayer."
-Honus Wagner

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Posted By: JimB

Thanks Trae. Other than the obviously trimmed examples, they do not look particularly thin to me.
jimB

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Posted By: peter ullman

Nice Trae...those borders look pretty standard to me. So much for the american beauty/bl460 theory. Said, entombed card definitely is short...and skinny...but I'm still unsure if card is trimmed?!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Trae- you didn't save a copy of the Vic Willis I sold last year? That one counts too.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Very interesting scans guys! Some look thin and some don't to me! Very neat stuff here. Heck, one thing I can guarantee, it won't be the first or the last time that I was wrong! Take care Dan.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Trae- thanks for saving me time from scanning...(the Stahl is mine)...

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

BROAD LEAF 460........29 confirmed of a possible 62 Subjects (1/4/08)

The possible 62 Subjects comprise of the 55 - 350/460 cards, the 6 super prints, and Kleinow (Boston). That leaves 47 Subjects
from the 460-only Series that have never been seen with BL 460 backs.......can anyone confirm any ?


Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fldg)
Cobb (red)............................super-print
Cobb (bat off)
Davis (A's)
Dougherty (arms in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fldg)
Evers (Chi-bat)......................super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitch)
Joss (pitch)
Kleinow (Boston).....................460-only
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap).............super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hds/knees)
Reulbach (glove)
Rucker (throw)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (fldg)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Willis (throw)
CYoung (glove)


TED Z

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Hi Guys,
I don't have access to my scans this week, but will happily post them sometime over the weekend. I have seen 6-7 really nice examples that were not thin, and some were slightly oversized. Most of the really sharp cards came from James Verrill's find a few years ago,as well as the Mathewson and Young that came out in 2005. Perhaps the Elberfeld was part of another small find of thinner cards which may or may not have been trimmed. With such a small sample of cards, its difficult to know for sure.... Hopefully my scans will add some insight.
Be well Brian

PS Barry, please feel free to edit my post for spelling and grammer, as the kids are wearing me out this week.

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Hi Guys,
I don't have access to my scans this week, but will happily post them sometime over the weekend. I have seen 6-7 really nice examples that were not thin, and some were slightly oversized. Most of the really sharp cards came from James Verrill's find a few years ago,as well as the Mathewson and Young that came out in 2005. Perhaps the Elberfeld was part of another small find of thinner cards which may or may not have been trimmed. With such a small sample of cards, its difficult to know for sure.... Hopefully my scans will add some insight.
Be well Brian

PS Barry, please feel free to edit my post for spelling and grammer, as the kids are wearing me out this week.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Sure Brian- let's start with "grammar"

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Thanks Barry.... No time for spell check today, running out the door.

Have a good day. Be well Brian

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Posted By: peter ullman

you may want to check for redundancy as well?!(insert smiley face here!

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Posted By: Trae R.

Barry, I missed that one!

Mike, cool! Sorry for no credit on any of these.




---
"There ain't much to being a ballplayer, if you're a ballplayer."
-Honus Wagner

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Trae- no sweat...that's actually a nice big scan of my card...thanks.

MS

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Posted By: Don E.

In reply to Ted Z's post. Here's a BL460 Rucker (throwing) on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Nap-Rucker-Throwing-Brooklyn-SGC-30-Broad-Leaf_W0QQitemZ270234785788QQihZ017QQcategoryZ57993 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Here's a few more....