Getting Discouraged with raw cards

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Posted By: Anson

I know the topic of grading is about as heated as the Bosox/Yanks rivalry. However, I'm really leaning towards only buying graded cards. While I really appreciate them out of the plastic holders, it's getting VERY tough to find unaltered cards otherwise.

Recently, I've acquired several raw cards in hopes of completing my set. I purchased these cards through honest, reputable sellers. However, nearly all of them had some mild to major trimming and/or altering. I know there are raw examples that are untouched floating around somewhere. I don't blame the sellers as they probably don't spend a lot of time examining a lower-grade common.

Grading companies are far from perfect. But, I would guess that you have a better chance at getting an unaltered card buying it in a holder.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

The sad fact is that a slabbed card has more value to certain buyers...

so a seller would be foolish to NOT get a card slabbed and graded as high as possible.

Thus, I am at the point where I believe that any UNSLABBED card has "something" wrong with it that kept the seller from having it slabbed and having the value increased.

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Posted By: scott

i'm with you on that fact anson.at times i feel confident in buying a great raw card but something in me keeps me from doing it.nothing would stink more then plunking down a couple hundred $$ or more,then have a grading company break the bad news.i'm torn at times but everytime i read about another bad experience i forget about raw.i don't blame reputable dealers either because they probably do not go over the low to midgrade cards like the higher ones.i feel like a have raw vs. graded bipolar disorder!

scott

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

the raw E101's you bought from me all graded and were unaltered (even though PSA was a little strict on a few of them).

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Posted By: Anonymous

Although top notch ungraded cards can be found they are few and far between. Until a person has sat down and really talked with a grader as to what they look at on a card they are really just guessing. Grading is not a perfect thing as i have owned many cards that to me the grade is off, but it does weed out the majority of the trimmed and altered cards. Some collectors will disagree but grading is here to stay. My opinion is to only buy graded cards.

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Posted By: DJ

I too have purchased cards from reputable dealers only to find mild trimming. I play the devil's advocate when I'm looking on eBay with cards that's only flaw is that a seventeen year old surfer doesn't give it a grade. Back in the 1980's, you (at least I)never heard of trimming. When did it become 'vogue' to put nail scissors to cards 80-100 years old?

DJ

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Posted By: Anson

Scott E's cards all graded and were exactly what I expected. I've had a few other purchases that didn't go quite as well with other upstanding folks. Luckily, they've all been understanding and professional so far. If anything, I believe it was just an oversight being that they were lower dollar commons.

It's not so much about money for me. But, I really want to have the cards in the used condition that they're supposed to have. Round corners are much nicer than recently sharpened ones.

Someday I'll finish this darn set. Thanks to all the folks who have helped me so far!


BTW Scott, Nice Boss Schmidt

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

"Thus, I am at the point where I believe that any UNSLABBED card has "something" wrong with it that kept the seller from having it slabbed and having the value increased."

I personally have the same reservations about buying unslabbed even cards later than prewar, but at the same time PSA is slabbing high numbers of new cards every day the majority of which must be "good," and they can't all be resubmits looking for a higher grade, so where ARE they coming from. I believe that even with the advent of ebay, there are still a lot of local type dealers and shop owners who just don't do grading. A good friend of mine who is a major national dealer keeps amassing a huge inventory of PSA 8s (ok mostly 50s and 60s but still...) so he is getting the raw cards from somewhre.

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

I prefer ungraded (raw) cards because they are more affordable than graded cards.

Best Regards,

Adam J. Moraine

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Hope you like the Bergen you acquired from BCD (that one originated from me as well)! Find a Croft's Cocoa Seigle (any grade) and I have a super nice GAI 3.5 (looks nicer) E101 Seigle to trade!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Damian Anderson

You just have to look hard and be prepared to deal with the hassle of returns to the sellers over the internent. I have never had refund refused from a seller on a card that I deemed altered or third party deemed altered. Just watch feedback closely and ask questions upfront. There is an element of time investment here though. I buy almost exclusively raw cards and get them graded myself. I have encountered many altered cards doing this and many unaltered. I have learned alot about trimming doing this (and by reading this forum). It has cost me some in grading fees, but at this point I consider it money well spent from the knowledge acquired. I also have learned that my semi-trained eye is often as good as or better than the opinion of the grader. Cards I questioned and wasn't sure about came back graded and cards I know weren't came back as. This is a huge plus when buying in person. Of course this applies only to issues I am familiar with. Third party graders aren't perfect for sure. Just my thoughts.

Damian

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Posted By: jay behrens

People started taking scissors in hand when Jim Copeland started paying $100 for NM t206 commons. I remember dealers going through my inventory and specifically asking if I had any oversized t205s or t206s. There also a person looking for totally beatten up 33 Goudeys. He wanted them so he could use the paper in cards that he was restoring. This is around 1987. Because of this, I've always been very leery of high grade 33 Goudeys. Who knows what other sets this person has been performing restorations on.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

raw cards are a true crapshoot. Every bum deal I've had has been on raw cards or lousy grading service [PRO] cards. I still buy raw cards but rarely from anyone I don't know. Mostly I buy them in person at shows. There are a surprisingly large number of trimmed raw cards out there and even reputable dealers can carry them, some of whom don't care even if the cards are IDed as trimmed. I once had one spotted at a show by Global's authenticators [felt pretty dumb not spotting it myself, BTW], returned it to the dealer, who I knew and who refunded my $$, AND THEN HE PUT IT RIGHT BACK IN THE CASE FOR THE NEXT SUCKER! Needless to say I don't buy from him anymore.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

You feel safer having someone else, usually with far less vintage card experience than yourself, put a card in a holder and tell you it's NOT trimmed ?!? Or is it that once a trimmed card is slabbed, you are fine with it? i.e, it somehow magically becomes "virgin" again?

If you can't trust your own judgement, then you have absolutely NO idea what's in that slab you are so proud of, ESPECIALLY with the high-dollar slabbed cards you see in major auctions. I think there is a lot of rationalization going on among people who have committed major chunks of income to this hobby...and to cards in slabs.

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Posted By: leon

I disagree slightly. Since I know the guys who do the grading at SGC I respect that companies work. I am quite sure that Bob and Scott are better at telling a trimmed card than I am. I think I can tell them fairly well but they handle far more cards than I do. I have handled several thousand vintage cards but I am sure they have handled hundreds of thousands.....(even if not all were slabbed). As for the 2 other major services I have far less confidence in them....although PSA does a good job most of the times. GAI is all over the board and I don't trust them too much ..and I think they grade rather leniently. As for buying raw cards it is really a crap shoot. Almost all full time dealers overgrade according to today's grading company standards, imo. I haven't had too much of a problem with trimmed cards (knock on wood). regards

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Posted By: Anson

I'm simply making the point that a larger number of graded cards AREN'T trimmed compared to those that are raw. The holder isn't my security blanket other than the fact that statistically it has a better chance of being intact.

With all the beating up of the card companies that goes on, MOST of their graded cards are at least unaltered. I don't buy anything (graded or not) that doesn't suit me. But I'm not going act like a bitter old trout over slabbed cards either.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

not to you specifically. Yes, in general the posters on this thread seem to be using slabs as security blankets - I like your analogy.

Also, I'm glad to hear you aren't going to be a bitter old trout - A nice fresh plastic aroma sounds much better.

Leon - you know exactly what I'm talking about, and we're in agreement.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I've onloy bought one slabbed card on eBay, my 33 Goudey Gehrig. The rest have all been raw and the few I've submitted to slabbed have come back OK. As far as I can tell none of the cards I've bought raw are trimmed except the ones that were stated as such in the auctions like my 41 PlayBall DiMaggio. With my budget, I've learned to develope a tolerance for trimmed cards, especially the die-cuts



Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

No one's going to look at a fellow board member's $10,000 PSA8 card and say "hey, isn't that quite a bit short?" - it's bad form - but we'll certainly do that to images in a major auction house catalog (or have we all forgotten?). I know, I know - the plastic case somehow ages the cut.

As for lower-grade cards, you buy those slabbed to 'protect' yourselves? Yikes.

(By the way, you can buy old trout shrink-wrapped in plastic.)

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Posted By: Anson

But is the old trout trimmed?


I have muc more confidence in an SGC card than one in the raw. Sorry, that's just reality. Nobody is perfect and an occasional mistake will be made. However, I would not be happy with a graded, trimmed card either.

I will gladly accept anyone's slabbed cards if the plastic fumes are making them dizzy.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

SGC does a pretty good job. They are human like all of us and will make occasional mistakes, which in my experience they fix pretty readily and with a minimum of hassle. The GAI graders caught one for me at a show, for which I am thankful. I trust my eyes most of all, but I trust SGC to turn out a good product the vast majority of the time, which is a hell of a lot better odds than I'v experienced on ebay with raw cards.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Are you guys baiting me? You know I haven't said anything about SGC, and you know how I feel about their work. Don't push - I'm not biting

And Anson, the trout in the shrink-wrap might stink and it might not - the plastic sort of hides the "smell".

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Posted By: DJ

Slabbed (not shrink wrapped) post-war.

Generously Graded?

Bids at $19.95 for a five cent common card only twenty-five years old.

DJ

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Posted By: Anson

Is that Trout or Napolean Dynamite?

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Posted By: DJ

Anson...

Vote For....



DJ

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

WHY would someone bid almost $20.00, for a PSA graded 10 card of Steve Trout? Which IF NOT graded, you could find at your local card shop/show for about 5 cents.I mean come on guys, Who was Steve trout anyway? I have not even heard of the guy!

best regards,

Adam J. Moraine

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Posted By: DJ

C'mon Adam, the famous and great Steve Trout? 12 years in the bigs...88-92 with a touch over 600 lifetime strike outs? Who is being silly here!

It's all about the Population Report! I do 'high price' searched on all the grading cards companies when I look on eBay and it amazes me how much $.03 cars sell for in '10' slabs. A Paul Householder 1984 Topps sold for $28 in PSA 10 form a few weeks back! If you don't know Steve Trout, you ain't going to know about a guy who played like ten years in the bigs and averaged three homes a year! The funny thing is that the seller had a PSA8 Householder that sold for $2.11!

DJ

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

so there's something more to these plastic slabs than simply the "safety blanket" effect? Perhaps people are actually buying PSA labels?

...a perfectly good "Trout" gone bad.

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Posted By: DJ

Scott,

When you are trying to put together a 'cherry' set from the 1980's, hell yeah it's all about the slab! 792 cards in a set...multiply that with PSA grading fees for each card...then recognize that some schmo is disappointed with their PSA8 Britt Burns and PSA9 Ron Hassey and you have to question the sanity of those gathering 'the slabs' in a world where you can buy a box for less than $200 and create a nice little NM-MT (some 10's) set worth about $175. No worries about trimming or re-backing, just try and locate the baseball card dealer at the show who still brings commons! He may be as hard to find as the Yetti!

DJ

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Posted By: jay behrens

Yeti's are easy find, but you are right, yetti's are really tough :-p

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: quan

if you do your homework and know what to look for, buying raw can save you a bundle just from the decreased competition. clear scans, ask for detailed physical description of cards. from my experience you save at least 40-50%, the 2 cards below were bought raw or i would've never been able to get it.

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

DJ,

Thanks for the Steve Trout bio. info. I have not even heard of the guy. I ALL means I am dead serious, I did not now who Steve F!@#$% Trout was.

Best Regards,

Adam J. Moraine

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Posted By: Steve

Son of Dizzy Trout

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Posted By: David Vargha

Seriously, if you followed baseball in 1980, you should know who Steve Trout is. But my question is, who cares if somebody pays $20 for his card? Why is there this constant harping about what others choose to spend their money on? Isn't it just a little silly that any of us spends our hard earned money on pieces of cardboard? I'm glad those collectors are chasing things I don't collect. It's already hard enough to compete for the cards I do want.

Also, why is that collector any less foolish than someone paying hundreds of dollars for an e107 Breisch Williams card of Herm McFarland? I mean, who has heard of this guy? And why would anyone pay such money for a beat-up card of a guy who managed a paltry .266 career average while everyone seemed to be hitting .300 or better? Maybe it was his .191 BA as a rookie. C'mon and get off of the condescending, high-horse.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Quan, I'm curious about those two raw cards you had slabbed: what condition were they advertised as when you purchased them?

And furthermore, any self-respecting baseball fan recalls Steve Trout as one of the many guys in the 80s that, in the words of George Steinbrenner, 'spit the bit' while having a disastrous short-lived term as a Yankee pitcher.

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Posted By: DJ

David,

C'mon, you can't compare an e107 Breisch Williams card of Herm McFarland and a 1980 Topps card of Steve Trout?

In one instance you have a 'very rare' card that you may only see 4-5 in a lifetime (if that...and I've never seen one yet) and in another case, there are perhaps millions of these 1980 Topps cards out there.

The difference is that when people attempt to put together a 'perfect' (10's) set from only twenty years ago, what they are doing is obviously purchasing the slab.

If slab's and population reports didn't exist, they would be just as happy purchasing a box for $200 Or buying a nice set from a dealer for $150 or so.

Hey, I don't care what people spend their money on but this is a Board and we have to talk about something so let's pick on those who purchase the 'slabs'.

DJ

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Posted By: warshawlaw

LOL; that's good

Let's also hear it for the much maligned sets of 1974-80. They are a challenge to assemble in well-centered top shape, have lots of great players, and are not too expensive until the slabheads start on them.

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

David,

There is NO WAY I could have followed baseball in 1980. I was born November 3, 1980.

Best regards,

Adam J. Moraine

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Posted By: dan mckee

I guess my entire personal collection has been altered. All complete sets Goudey, Bowman, Topps, Playball, many T and R sets, all altered, as they are all RAW and will stay that way.

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Posted By: mark bowers

Thanks Dan. There must be two of us and I've been stashing stuff away since 1947 ! Not one slab in this house. Wonder who snuck in and spent weeks trimming without being seen ?

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

I'm getting discouraged just buying cards. It seems 10% of the time I'm getting crap or a run around.

I've just about confined myself to dealings only with sellers I've had positive experiences.

I enjoy scanning new listings on Ebay, and finding that "rare jewel" rarely offered, only to be disappointed because its offered by a seller I don't know.
I should avoid the temptation and scan only credible sellers listings.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Here's a reason to stop buying raw cards on ebay: I just sent in to PSA 7 vintage cards to be graded; all were bought on ebay in listings describing the cards as "Near Mint" and they all looked great in the scans. My grades: 5, 5, 5, 3, 7, 7, 7. Enough said.

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Posted By: cmoking

actually I am shocked the other way. it is shocking you had 3 of the cards come back as PSA 7. You should be happy, as you were lucky to get almost half of them back the way it was described.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

3 out of 7 at NM is not exactly a ringing endorsement for the overall honesty of ebay sellers, especially when there is a VG 3 in the bunch. This is why you can't buy expensive raw cards on ebay. You need to adjust your bidding at least 2 grades lower (if you're lucky) when going after these cards due to the rampant dishonesty that exists on ebay.

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Posted By: cmoking

your experience has been much much better than mine.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

When you received the raw cards did you feel that they were near mint? Or did you not feel competent to express an opinion and looked to PSA to do it for you? I'm not denigrating you if the latter; I am merely trying to understand your post. I've gotten lots of raw cards described as near mint that were 5's at best, but I knew it the instant I looked at the cards. I like to have my cards slabbed for the protection and look of it but I don't need them to tell me what the card grade is (except on rare occasions when I want a third party opinion because I can't really decide).

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Based on his ebay experience, and his resulting disappointment, it sounds like he should definitely stop buying raw cards. If he buys only slabbed cards in the future, he will always know exactly what condition his cards are in according to a grading company.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I am with Adam, does Jeff need a young kid who doesn't know what a vintage card is to tell him the grade of it? Were they NM to you Jeff or 1 VG, 3 EX and 3 NM?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Of course I could tell that most of the cards were not near mint once I received them; I sent them in to be graded just to sell them easier on ebay. I wouldn't just turn around and re-sell them as near mint when they clearly weren't. My point is simply this: if you want to spend a few dollars on raw cards your potential loss when you realize that the cards were wildly over graded by the ebay seller will be small. If you care to spend big dollars on raw cards that are described as near mint there is a high likelihood you'll get screwed. Every card I had purchased from that lot looked perfect in the scans. I think the majority of the buyers of raw vintage cards on this forum do not purchase high condition cards. When you're buying a card described as VG there is a great chance it will be VG upon receipt. When you buy a card described as NM it almost never is....(and of course, this gripe does not reflect issues of trimming).

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I've had it go both ways - purchased an ungraded NM t206 Joss portrait on ebay and took a bath when SGC slabbed it as EX+. I've also purchased cards slabbed as NM that had undisclosed paper loss/scratches on the back.

And most of us have purchased ungraded vintage cards on ebay that ended up being spectacular bargains - ask Jay about his Mint t206 Keeler.

It really depends on what you feel comfortable with and how much research you want to do before making the deal. I was serious when I suggested that, based on your post, you personally should only buy high-grade cards in slabs. Reduce stress whenever possible.