Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[vintagetoppsguy]

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dare
Disturb the sound of silence

There are 3 parties involved here - the doctor/consigner (I'll assume they're one in the same), PSA and PWCC. PWCC is the only party that's being called out here. I keep asking the same question, but I only hear crickets. Is it ethical to do business with a company that KNOWINGLY grades doctored cards?

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dare
Disturb the sound of silence

Great song by S & G, but I really like the way Disturbed does it.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

There are 3 parties involved here - the doctor/consigner (I'll assume they're one in the same), PSA and PWCC. PWCC is the only party that's being called out here. I keep asking the same question, but I only hear crickets. Is it ethical to do business with a company that KNOWINGLY grades doctored cards?

I always thought PSA graded "doctored" cards because they had some incompetent graders. What evidence do you have that it is the policy of PSA to "KNOWINGLY" assign a number grade to "doctored" cards? (It's okay to grade "doctored" cards as long as you "grade" them as altered.)

PWCC is being singled out because they put forth the idiotic definition of "conservation."

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

Originally Posted by AustinMike

What evidence do you have that it is the policy of PSA to "KNOWINGLY" assign a number grade to "doctored" cards?

Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?

[oldjudge]

I’ve never said anything about PWCC. That is a separate conversation.

[Rooftop]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?

Why would PWCC continue to accept consignor's cards that are known trimmers?

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?

Hmm, nice deflection! So, you have no evidence to back up your claim.

I've never claimed PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction. As I said earlier, I think their definition of "conservation" is atrocious. And I'll add, I think that by putting forth the definition of "conservation" that they did, they're not doing PWCC or the collecting community any favors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?

The WWG 7 DiMaggio. The card Brent bought himself out of REA as a 4, as he acknowledged.

[BLongley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Where's y'alls evidence that PWCC has knowledge of a doctored card prior to the auction?

David, as mentioned earlier you may want to take a look at Blowout Forums. The person in charge of Business Development for PWCC is Jesse Craig... who certainly may be innocent, but he worked for one of the biggest trimmers in the hobby who is a convicted felon and just happened to use PWCC to sell many of his doctored cards... perhaps PWCC didn’t know they were doctored but we are talking A LOT of cards sold by him with an old connection of his working at PWCC... see details below... and there are pages and pages of examples if you care to research.

Personally I’m done with PWCC and have spent tens of thousands with them over the years...

Preface: There is a lot in this thread. I'd suggest finding some time to get a bowl of popcorn, read though it all, and then comment if you wish. I ask that you please do not just skim though through this thread and then write an uninformed reply, as this will just add confusion to an already complex thread. Not 100% of the content in this thread is germane to the allegations in the title, however I feel that most will appreciate the historical context, either as a refresher or to learn about this company for the first time.

Without further ado, here is Will Jaimet:

William Thom Jaimet
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100014391516111
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/will-jaimet-4b851915
Heroes of Sport/Jaimet's Personal Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/media


Note who he is following on Facebook:
1. Kevin Burge


2. Vinny Ho


3. Keith Koenig





Will Jaimet has been involved in the sports cards and memorabilia industry from a very young age, as his father, Scott Jaimet AKA Thom Jaimet, used to run Oregon Trail Auctions in the 90s-00s before it was bought out by Mastro West. From all that I have read online, he seems to have been a well respected member of the hobby before his passing in late 2009. Will's presence in the hobby began sometime in the early to mid-2000s when he started selling mostly graded cards though his company Rose City Sports on eBay using the accounts ROSE-CITY-SPORTS and ROSE-CITY-SPORTS-2. Both those user IDs have long since been changed, but some of his listings can be found in the Worthpoint link below. He mostly sold low pop. high-grade cards (PSA 10, BGS 9.5-10) and even had an article written about his company for selling the first SGC 98 Jordan RC.

ROSE-CITY-SPORTS: https://www.worthpoint.com/inventory...s%22&category=

Jordan SGC 98 article: https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...n-rookie-sold/

In 2009 he had his first child, which he said raised his level of responsibility, so he decided to follow in the footsteps of his father and create an auction house by the name of Heroes of Sport. Their first and only auction took place November 18th-December 1st of that year.

Source: http://www.net54baseball.com/archive...?t-115242.html

In the following years, 2010 through 2012 to be exact, he continued to sell on Ebay and via the Heroes of Sport website, but he never held another Heroes of Sport auction. His reasoning is below:


Source: http://www.sportscardmagazine.net/20...r-will-jaimet/

Instead, as indicated in the except above, he began to prepare (poorly as it would turn out) to launch a repack product by the same name of his auction house, Heroes of Sport. His brand was legitimized by advertising, such as taking out a full page ad on the back cover of Beckett and traveling around the card media circuit for interviews, in addition to the legitimization from the brand he had created running the Heroes of Sport catalog auction.

He believed that he had the knowledge to buy cards enough below market value to deliver a valuable product to his customers:



However the legitimacy of both Jaimet and HoS was short-lived, as in late 2012, Boomo announced via FCB that he would be premiering HoS's first product on boomosbreaks. The lengthy FCB thread is below:

https://www.freedomcardboard.com/for...t-boomosbreaks

To make many long stories short, there was a bunch of petty drama both on FCB and BO that is implicit in choosing to use Boomo as a means of promoting your product. However, there were some clear conclusions to be drawn as the product started to appear through more legitimate and universally-respected hobby distribution channels. First, the ROI was abysmal. While the great hits were great, everything else was fairly worthless. This is discussed in a lengthy BO thread linked below titled "$500 boxes producing $50 in cards? How about $700 box producing a $20 card?":

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...ghlight=jaimet

Second, there was a large controversy with the items in later boxes of the product being purchased during the products run. In other words, the product was not completely packed out (or even purchased) before its launch. This, compounded by the fact that Jaimet did not (and still doesn't) make checklists for his product nor even create a basic sell sheet, was seen as highly concerning in the eyes of most. Tonedef got this one correct:

[BLongley]

In 2015, it is unknown what exactly Jaimet and HoS were up to. He/They were trimming cards by this point (more on that later), but it is unknown what other business ventures they were engaged in.

Then, in very late 2015, Heroes made its return:


Heroes of Sports "The Truth" was sold in late 2015 though early 2016, and the only way I can interpret the evidence that I am about to present is that it was a massive scam. Feel free to disagree, but nothing below adds up to a legitimate product being issued.

The product was 100 cases and was exclusively sold through BrosBreaks. Per Jaimet, it sold out the day before a concluding "draft" that seems comparable to the convoluted HoS points auctions from 2013 that I will not explain in this thread. Here is a tweet from Jaimet linking to the BreakersBro page:


Source: https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...64226331734017

Here is the BreakersBro page. Note the name "Jesse" and the linked Facebook group:


https://breakers.tv/brosbreaks

Here is the private Facebook group. As stated, this breaking group existed solely to break HoS "The Truth" and nothing else:

Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1641164426138784/

This is who is running the group (note that his name is Jesse):

https://www.facebook.com/jesse.craig.507

His LinkedIn:


Source: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thecraiggrouppdx

He is/was the co-owner of HoS:


So this is a little bit suspect. The former, publicly unknown, co-owner named Jesse Craig (who interestingly enough now holds a high-level job at PWCC) created a breaking company to exclusively break 100% of a HoS product that has no checklist and will be broken entirely random-draft style. Does that seem a little bit suspect? If HoS wanted to break its own product why not just do that? Because they were running an elaborate fraud?

Jaimet posted some of the high-end hits from HoS "The Truth" on its Twitter page. Here's an example:



The problem is that about 90% of these cards posted do not appear to have been legitimately pulled/drafted to customers. Remember the title of this thread about Jaimet being a large PWCC consigner? That will be proven later, but for now, let's just analyze the hits from this product that were posted on Twitter. Of the last 25 hits from "The Truth" posted on Twitter, 22/25 were sold through PWCC directly after they were posted, 1 sold through Probstein, and 2 did not immediately come up for auction again. There are many more, but 25 seems to be a large enough sample to get the picture. The links are below:

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...97668879564800
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...dan-1797628882
PROBSTEIN

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...97361130844160
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1206869

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...97068112609281
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212696

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...96871047380992
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212476

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...96557401571328
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1206728

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...96200441126912
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ait-1799547343

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...95966281527296
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1207337

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...77735063900161
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1206805

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...38887022223360
DOES NOT APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN RESOLD

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...38730310467584
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1216707

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...36128722087941
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1217491

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...35845141000192
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1217069

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...35649485074432
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1204141

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...31161672069120
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1208019

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30817772728320
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212520

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30567855091713
DOES NOT APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN RESOLD

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30457775575040
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1211813

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30309704122368
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212564

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...30146574995456
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1206645

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...29611918684160
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1211544

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...26788371988480
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212647

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...26608935469058
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1205491

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...26225550917636
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212815

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...25955039244288
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1213132

https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/st...25593486049281
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1212532

Why would 90% of the best hits be sold through PWCC immediately after they were pulled? The only logical conclusion is that BrosBreaks was created only to execute a fraud between HoS and Craig. If the product "sold out" there is no way for them to have legitimately retained 90% of the best hits. And I don't believe that one legitimate buyer purchased some 90 cases of the product.




After this debacle, Jaimet's trimming side hustle was in full force through 2016, but everything came to a halt at the end November 2018 when Jaimet was arrested for the following:



There is A LOT to this criminal case, and I'm just going to provide a summary here. If you are interested in reading through it yourself, use the link and instructions provided below to do so:

https://webportal.courts.oregon.gov/...e/Dashboard/29

Instructions: Enter "Jaimet, Will" in field and retype characters. Click on case 16CR75219. Do not use back button. Many fields are cut off on the website, so copy/paste may be necessary to read everything.

The short run down is the following: On 11/28/16, he was arraigned on the charges above. On 11/29/16 he posted $3k bail. On 12/01/16 his release was revoked, his $3k was forfeited, and his bail was upped to $500k. He was given a no contact order with his wife and kids on this date. At a 12/23/2016 court appearance he was summarily convicted of obstruction for cursing at the judge in court. Snapshot of that below. At a 01/18/2017 court appearance he was again summarily convicted of obstruction for cursing at the judge in court. On 03/03/2017, he plead guilty to the felony weapons charge and the other charges were dismissed. He was given time served plus 3 years probation. Per the website, he twice violated the terms of his probation. He is still on unsupervised felony probation as of today.

12/23/2016:


01/18/2017:


Again, look over everything yourself if you want the grittier details. There's some stuff that just isn't getting posted here.



A few months later, Jaimet was back to buying cards to trim, but his days of HoS products were evidently not yet over.



In early 2019, with all of Jaimet's LLCs expired for the umpteenth time and the HoS website lost to another entity, Jaimet fired up the HoS Twitter account again to start pumping his new HoS products. He distributed them to at least four breakers (Blowout Cards, Cardsmiths Breaks, Grand Slam Collectibles, and Layton Sports Cards). Yet again, there is no checklist and no sell sheet. I was amused to see that Grand Slam was selling the product based off of what was pulled from HoS products 4-5 years go. Simply comical.




It's hard to assess if a card is trimmed from a group break video, but here's a card that was pulled from 2019 HoS that is unquestionably trimmed:

Pre: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...lub-1887207185
Post: https://twitter.com/cardsmithsbreak/...02598518960128
Break video: https://youtu.be/xp5xHzgsjZM?t=414


I'm going to assert that this card from 2019 HoS is trimmed seeing as it went from a GMA 8.5 to a PSA 10. If anyone knows who has it, we can be 100% certain.

Pre: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...kie-1781925822
Break (Watch closely to see serial number is 1346/2011): https://youtu.be/5JhrnWW4yzY?t=194





This card is suspect at best. I see no corner damage on the card pulled from HoS.

Pre: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ions-405237333
Break: https://youtu.be/OyEH3j9-CMU



Lastly, Will Jaimet's Ebay account qut9 (proof below on how we can be certain that it is his account) purchased dozens of raw/BGS 9 Topps flagship color in early 2018. Many have visible flaws. Yet there are dozens of these cards that have never shown up for sale before in his 2019 product. I am certain most if not all are trimmed. Here's a few examples of what I'm talking about:







Here are the flagship color cards he bought. Ctrl+f for q***u on these feedback pages. If you are so inclined, feel free to copy the listing title over to Worthpoint to check the condition of these cards out. Most clearly are not Gem Mint:

https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...0&mPg=4&page=2
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...0&mPg=7&page=3
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...&mPg=25&page=2
https://web.archive.org/web/20190417...mPg=52&page=52
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...rchInterval=30
https://web.archive.org/web/20190417...mPg=44&page=14








LINKING WILL JAIMET TO QUT9:


At this point, if you didn't come here from one of the sports threads showing trimmed cards sold via PWCC from Ebay user qut9, go check those out:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1288385

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1288384

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1288386

If you did, here are 5 points of proof that qut9 is Will Jaimet. #6 would be that his account went dead while he was dealing with his criminal case, but I won't prove that below.

1. qut9 is Located near Vancouver, Washington, but not in the state of Washington.

The name on qut9's account is Vancouver Card Company, which is 100% fictitious. No such LLC exists in Washington or Oregon, nor does Google return anything. Here is a BO post about that user ID:


Source: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...highlight=qut9

Note the 97... zip. That has to be an Oregon address, not one in Washington. Jaimet is in the Tigard/Lake Oswego area, which has a 97... zip code.


2. A Card qut9 purchased appears in a 2019 HoS product.


Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20190416...rchInterval=30

Break: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FP...&list=WL&t=790




3. An unnamed, reliable source puts trimmed Jeter qut9 purchased in Will Jaimet's possession.

Dan called the following card out as trimmed here:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...86&postcount=2

Here is the buyer feedback for the raw sale of that card (note exact title match):


Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20190406...824572&page=55

A reliable source puts this card in Will Jaimet's possession.


4. In 2013, qut9 purchased card inserted in HoS.


Link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...dard-464583030


Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20190420...&mPg=14&page=7


5. In 2013, qut9 purchased card inserted in HoS.


Link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...nte-1617130819


Link: https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...&mPg=14&page=6
Worthpoint: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...mber-423415532


This card might be trimmed, but I am unconvinced as I really don't like the raw seller's pictures due to their tendency to magnify damage. You decide.




POINTS TO TAKE AWAY FROM THIS THREAD:

1. Do NOT purchase any Heroes of Sports products.

2. Buyer beware when purchasing cards from fly-by-night repack/card companies.

3. If a modern graded (PSA, BGS, or SGC) card's first sale was through PWCC, I'd say there is approximately a 50% chance it is trimmed. Use the PWCC Auction history to verify a card has never sold though PWCC in addition to Worthpoint to look for evidence of trimming. Additional threads in the works will further substantiate this statistic.

4. It greatly concerns me that Jesse Craig is employed by PWCC considering his involvement with HoS and relationship with Jaimet.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Brian, thanks for taking the time to author the posts. It looks like you put a lot of effort into it. I won't have a chance to look at it tonight, but I will read it in the morning. If you took the time to write it, I'll take the time to read it.

[BLongley]

And apparently the links don’t work when they get copied over, so if anyone does want to look, here is the link to the page which should work...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...ht=Jesse+Craig

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by BLongley

Without further ado, here is Will Jaimet:

William Thom Jaimet
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100014391516111
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/will-jaimet-4b851915
Heroes of Sport/Jaimet's Personal Twitter: https://twitter.com/HeroesofSport/media

Blongley,

I made a few in person sales on post war sets with Will Jaimet years ago while he was under the Rose City name. Nice guy with a lot of knowledge. Sorry to hear about his family situation. Fascinating what you can find on the internet.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

What evidence do you have that it is the policy of PSA to "KNOWINGLY" assign a number grade to "doctored" cards? (It's okay to grade "doctored" cards as long as you "grade" them as altered.)

If you take PSA at their word, their founder Mr. Hall was not competent enough to "KNOWINGLY" call the Gretzky Wagner altered. Because he didn't know. Really, I'm sure he didn't...

[Goudey77]

You know in theory all cards that are handled will intercept the oils and residue that comes with human hand contact. Same goes for coins. So all cards have foreign residue and oil or print marks from these transactions. Just saying if you want to get really technical this topic will never end.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Email blast from PWCC. Touting the altered Mantle. Funny, not a word about conservation. I guess the tenets will only apply prospectively?

Baseball 1949-1953 Highlights
Closing Today: 6-9pm PST
__________________________________________________ _




A glowing and altogether stunning '52 Topps Mickey Mantle for the grade. We love this card as it lights up the room, boasting unquestionably NM-MT surfaces with pristine clarity, near flawless print and vivid color. By far the cleanest and brightest copy we've brokered in years (including many which grade higher than the offered PSA 4.5). Perhaps what's most impressive about this shockingly beautiful card is the centering. Virtually 50-50 from every angle; an extremely rare quality for the condition sensitive kick-start to the ultra difficult high-number series. Boasts clean white borders with crisp edges and card stock void of any wrinkles. Extremely modest corner wear to the right two are all that accounts for the harsh assessment.

This card would not be questioned for a second in a PSA 5 or even 5.5 holder. The '52 Topps Mantle is the most important post-war trading card in existence and seldom seen on the market with such exceptional overall eye appeal. Most educated investors appreciate that a card's eye appeal can fluctuate considerably within a single grade, and we are excited to label this example as being in the upper echelon of our quality spectrum. Comes with our highest recommendation.

Closes Today @ 8:09pm PST

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Email blast from PWCC. Touting the altered Mantle. Funny, not a word about conservation. I guess the tenets will only apply prospectively?

Baseball 1949-1953 Highlights
Closing Today: 6-9pm PST
__________________________________________________ _




A glowing and altogether stunning '52 Topps Mickey Mantle for the grade. We love this card as it lights up the room, boasting unquestionably NM-MT surfaces with pristine clarity, near flawless print and vivid color. By far the cleanest and brightest copy we've brokered in years (including many which grade higher than the offered PSA 4.5). Perhaps what's most impressive about this shockingly beautiful card is the centering. Virtually 50-50 from every angle; an extremely rare quality for the condition sensitive kick-start to the ultra difficult high-number series. Boasts clean white borders with crisp edges and card stock void of any wrinkles. Extremely modest corner wear to the right two are all that accounts for the harsh assessment.

This card would not be questioned for a second in a PSA 5 or even 5.5 holder. The '52 Topps Mantle is the most important post-war trading card in existence and seldom seen on the market with such exceptional overall eye appeal. Most educated investors appreciate that a card's eye appeal can fluctuate considerably within a single grade, and we are excited to label this example as being in the upper echelon of our quality spectrum. Comes with our highest recommendation.

Closes Today @ 8:09pm PST

just got that...I unsubscribed.

[drcy]

As the resident museum person here, who is professionally certified in museum sciences, I can say that the original OP post is very problematic-- though I won't take the time to say why.

I will, however, say that conservation and restoration are kinds of alteration. That's not a comment on if they good or bad, ethical or unethical, just that they are alteration. Cataloging them as not comes across to me as trickery.

Also, if there is nothing errant or wrong with conserving or restoring a card, and it shouldn't effect the market value, then you should not have an issue with disclosing that it's been conserved. If one says there's nothing material about, say, conservation and it shouldn't/won't effect market value, but bends over backwards not to disclose it, that speaks for itself that the person doesn't believe what he is saying. I do not know, and am not claiming to know the purpose. However, If this all a method to hide from bidders and buyers the presence of conservation or restoration or other alterations, it's wrong, and, while I'm not a lawyer and will dutifully defer to the lawyers here, might be illegal.

[jchcollins]

I read most posts, skimmed some, and boy howdy was this was an exhausting thread. Following the OP, we went sarcastic-pissed, then off on extreme legal tangents, and then (I think) actually got back around to talking about grading and alterations.

For what it's worth I will attempt to give my thoughts sans sarcasm, since I don't really have any personal experiences which sting. I've bought from PWCC before, but don't have any particular grudge against them for selling altered cards or dealing with shady consignors or anything like that.

For what it's worth I do think the "Conservation" (tongue-in-cheek) argument is interesting, but as many others have already pointed out - the hobby at large more or less set the bar there years ago, regardless of what PWCC does or does not decide to do for their limited marketplace.

Me personally, I've always been intrigued by the prejudice which seems to be accorded to cards assumed to be altered (trimming, obvious recoloration, etc.) vs. "honest wear" because - yes for some, at least a good deal of the time you can kind of tell - but if you weren't there to personally see how each card got it's wear, how do you really know definitively? You don't. That being said, cards upon which no dishonest work can be physically detected don't bother me. I think it should be left to TPG's and who you personally do or do not trust as to whether or not you believe their opinion on the state of alteration on the card or lack thereof is valid. All of the big TPG's make mistakes. Some think that at least one company among them is knowingly dishonest. All of it comes back around to are YOU happy with the particular example of the particular card, or does it mean more to you what PSA, SGC, BVG, (and then perhaps further qualifed by PWCC) have said or insinuated about the card or not? Because as we all know, what they grade or say is apt to be wildly different even if you submit the same card to each of them.

I've always maintained that it's absurd to think that some "professional" graders can have a valid opinion over and above some veteran hobbyists who have 30-50 or more years in looking at and evaluating vintage cards. At the end of the day what you can get comfortable with is all that matters. I don't particularly care one way or the other about graded cards - I think on the whole it is helpful to buy them that way online so as not to risk getting a creased card that is described as "Excellent" and things like that, but at the end of the day - ALL of this, even down to what PWCC wants to further cloud judgment with, purple stickers and altered vs. conserved, etc. etc. is really just opinion. There never will be a silver bullet for it, unless someone invents a time machine and we can go back and observe the whole, complete and unedited timeline provenance for every single existing baseball card in every collection today. Which of course ain't happening. I think what PWCC is propsing is pretty useless based on the fact that when it comes down to it - there is no way to be 100% certain about anything. Will it soothe collectors / investors already basically willing to look the other way into an easier false sense of security? Sure, and that's unfortunate for those of us who do care. But all of us here today reading this like / enjoy collecting vintage cards at least enough to be ~5% or more unsure about their true state of preservation. If we are being honest, how much leeway is really there - is it that - or more? Because as with just about everything, you can never really know 100% for sure. Taking the technical approach, as someone pointed out earlier - at some point gets so detailed as to be absurd and not consistent with the reasons people collect in the first place. I will be interested to see how much traction tactics like that can get...

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Great song by S & G, but I really like the way Disturbed does it.

The best rendition of that song (or any) that I have ever heard...period! His performance on Conan was EPIC!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk7RVw3I8eg