Ethical question / Paypal

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Pete,
What prompted them to shut down your gifting ability?

Could be this from the Paypal User Agreement:

"4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments."

[HRBAKER]

Sort of like speeding tickets, sooner or later they take your license away.
My guess is that they don't spend a lot of time tracking it but when it starts to involve large sums eventually they will get around to it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Sort of like speeding tickets, sooner or later they take your license away.
My guess is that they don't spend a lot of time tracking it but when it starts to involve large sums eventually they will get around to it.

Now that you mention speeding tickets, I have another moral question for those that believe sending/receiveing PayPal gift is taking away from PayPal's revenue.

If you blow past a cop on the freeway at 85 mph (assuming speed limit is 65mph) and he didn't see you for whatever reason, do you feel morally obligated to pull over and admit to the cop you were speeding and ask for a ticket? After all, writing speeding tickets is one way that the local law enforcement generates revenue. Or is it okay to cheat (you were breaking the law) the local law enforcement out of their revenue?

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by kcohen

Could be this from the Paypal User Agreement:

"4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments."

Thanks, I was just curious what reason they cited...... I suppose they would have cited exactly what you posted ; P.U.A. 4.1

[Leon]

Great, I only recently came over to the dark side of actually using the paypal gift payments on anything but true gift-like payments (as our contests are, or at least I consider them to be that). I think I see clear cut issues so will refrain from it in the future unless the other party mandates it. If they do then I will probably just let it go, but I probably won't ask for it anymore in sales, or I will split the fees. For the record, and not that it matters, I do pay paypal fees almost daily, one way or another...so it isn't like they don't make good money off of me but I know that's not the point, they should. It's their business. That all being said, when there is nothing changing hands I will probably still use it.

[ArchStanton]

When I buy cards on this board or the PSA board, I nearly always use the payment owed option. I never read their definition before. I guess I have been misusing that option. I have been a paypal user for about as long as they have been around. They make my life easier, and I help them make money. I do not spend or receive a ton of money through paypal.

My local bank offers some services to me as a customer. They will give me paper rolls for my change or give me a money order or chashiers check. They don't make any money from that, but I am a good, long-time customer.


I plan to continue to use the payment owed option whenever I feel comfortable with a seller. If you have a T206 Abbaticchio blue sleeves to sell, I'll show you.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Here's a crazy idea, use payment owed instead of gift. Same results less guilt for those that feel guilty.

I have no remorse for using either and not paying fees. I have had to try to deal with them once and it was a nightmare, and when they required "electronic payments/Paypal" that took the cake for me.

Lee

[HRBAKER]

David,
Interesting question. One that would make for interesting debate in a college ethics course I assume. Besides there being plenty of other good reasons not to drive 85 (and I have and have paid for it) besides the potential for lost revenue if you are not caught there might be a nuance or two differences in the pair. I would have to think more about it. On the surface I would say; a.) the police departments reason to be is not revenue generation, unlike paypal, and b.) I am already paying for their "goods and services" by conscription, unlike paypal which I only pay for when I choose to use and pay for it if I have agreed to their Terms and Conditions, c.) the revenue in that instance is designed to be punitive and behavior modifying not to serve solely as a source of income.

At the end of the day, when you choose to speed you have chosen to break the law/rules/T&C of the road so to speak.
Very good question.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

David,
Interesting question. One that would make for interesting debate in a college ethics course I assume. Besides there being plenty of other good reasons not to drive 85 (and I have and have paid for it) besides the potential for lost revenue if you are not caught there might be a nuance or two differences in the pair. I would have to think more about it. On the surface I would say; a.) the police departments reason to be is not revenue generation, unlike paypal, and b.) I am already paying for their "goods and services" by conscription, unlike paypal which I only pay for when I choose to use and pay for it if I have agreed to their Terms and Conditions, c.) the revenue in that instance is designed to be punitive and behavior modifying not to serve solely as a source of income.

At the end of the day, when you choose to speed you have chosen to break the law/rules/T&C of the road so to speak.
Very good question.

Ticket writing isn't revenue generation? Understanding a PD is not solely there to collect revenue but I would bet lunch on the fact that revenue is budgeted and counted on.
And do you really think police departments don't discuss the ticket revenue?

[HRBAKER]

I didn't say it wasn't revenue generation and that didn't discuss it, of course it is and they do. I said it wasn't the sole purpose of the fine and I referred to it as revenue. What I said was their reason to exist wasn't revenue generation like a publicly or privately held company. And of course they discuss it and budget for it. Unlike PP, we are also already paying for their services as well whether we don't speed, speed and get caught or not.

Like I said at the end of the day if you choose to speed you are making a choice to break the law.

[tonyo]

When I first started using paypal, they didn't charge a fee for payments sent using the balance, or maybe it was that they didn't charge fees if my account type didn't allow credit card payments. I believe that was it. Regardless, that policy changed and suddenly that account type was no longer an option.

It also seem there was a period where paypal gift didn't exist. I could be wrong on that.. my memory stinks these days.


My point is, paypal will probably remove the "gift/payment owed/ living expense/ other" option when they decide they aren't making enough money overall.


I think I'll choose "other" next time and see what happens.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Ticket writing isn't revenue generation? Understanding a PD is not solely there to collect revenue but I would bet lunch on the fact that revenue is budgeted and counted on.
And do you really think police departments don't discuss the ticket revenue?

I had occasion to discuss this with a retired LAPD precinct captain. He told me that there are no ratios or budgets per se for ticket writing or revenue--the infamous quota does not exist--but that when a cop's rate of ticket writing starts to fall below his average the PD considers it evidence that the patrolman isn't paying attention to what is going on in his patrol area and he will be questioned about it.

As for whether self-reporting a traffic infraction is the same as not using Paypal gift for purchases, the two are not equivalent. The equivalent would be speeding or not speeding. Also, the argument that because I speed I should not have an issue with cheating paypal is a form of false logic called Two Wrongs Make A Right (Tu Quoque): a charge of wrongdoing is answered by a rationalization that others have sinned, or might have sinned.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I had occasion to discuss this with a retired LAPD precinct captain. He told me that there are no ratios or budgets per se for ticket writing or revenue--the infamous quota does not exist--but that when a cop's rate of ticket writing starts to fall below his average the PD considers it evidence that the patrolman isn't paying attention to what is going on in his patrol area and he will be questioned about it.

As for whether self-reporting a traffic infraction is the same as not using Paypal gift for purchases, the two are not equivalent. The equivalent would be speeding or not speeding. Also, the argument that because I speed I should not have an issue with cheating paypal is a form of false logic called Two Wrongs Make A Right (Tu Quoque): a charge of wrongdoing is answered by a rationalization that others have sinned, or might have sinned.

I just did a Google search and got approximately 3.5 million hits. While "quotas" are almost never allowed there are thousands of instances and hundreds of hours of testimony concerning the officers being pressured to write more tickets. This whole forum could be about this subject and it would be very active. There are certainly no "quotas" but there is also reality. Reality is that there are "requirements" to write a certain amount of tickets at many precincts. We can call it what we want to but perfuming the pig does no good. It still stinks. And no doubt two wrongs don't make a right. Speeding is a crime. Using paypal gift isn't.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by bowlingshoegiverouterguy

Here's a crazy idea, use payment owed instead of gift. Same results less guilt for those that feel guilty.

I have no remorse for using either and not paying fees. I have had to try to deal with them once and it was a nightmare, and when they required "electronic payments/Paypal" that took the cake for me.

Lee

I had thought of that at one time but, irrespective of your degree of guilt or absence thereof, it's still the same violation of the User Agreement if you're selling something. The "payment owed" option is still a personal payment as opposed to a payment for goods.