PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am also guessing anyone without clear before and after evidence is facing an uphill battle on a review.

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

My understanding is that over the years many people have been dissatisfied with the outcome of their requests for guarantee reviews.

[CuriousGeorge]

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent’s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent’s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

Failure to act in good faith with respect to the guarantee is one legal possibility that comes to mind, assuming the facts are there. I would not be surprised at all if many people come forward in this regard. I can think of others as well but don't want to shoot from the hip just yet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Jack Nicholson line, You can't handle the truth, comes to mind in reflecting whether people REALLY want to know.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

PSA is getting paid to grade cards and is failing miserably to catch these issues. They have a guarantee that needs to be upheld. eBay is just the facilitator of the transactions and I suspect that if anyone accused would have their auctions shut down there would be a lot less for sale there. In time I imagine they will deal with PWCC depending on where this goes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I continue to be puzzed by Sloan's (probably from JO really) statement that only if the seller is unknown should someone send in cards for review.

One, it seems inconsistent with the plain terms of the guarantee.
Two, how often is the seller "unknown"?

[70ToppsFanatic]

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They’ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let’s not get in front of our headlights.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They’ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let’s not get in front of our headlights.

To claim that only 1,000 bad cards have made it into PSA Holders is a ridiculous understatement. It takes a ton of work and research to positively expose just one single card. For every one that is exposed, you can figure there are about 10 that get by unscathed. The fact is nobody will ever know how many bogus cards are circulating in various collections, now that the cat is out of the bag.

So the "THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT" claim is completely baseless.

You can really tell from these posts who cares about the integrity of the hobby, and who is motivated by money. I urge anyone here who truly cares about the hobby to boycott PSA and stop sending them submissions. They'll likely not make good on their supposed "guarantee", so this is one of very few meaningful actions we can take to instigate change.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They’ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let’s not get in front of our headlights.

Did you make that number up? Nobody is saying it’s possibly 1,000 cards. There were 950 cards in just 1 submission.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

Brent Mastro says "He is working with PSA" when PSA should be suing the S*** out of him and d-listing the schmuck. AND e-bay sells 1000's of dollars in forgeries and fakes everyday 365 days a year. Do you think they care? Think again. NEW FLASH: They don't and they will protect their little Brenty just like PSA is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, by changing his ID, Gary appears to be showing his intent to keep right on keeping on.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

You don't necessarily have to be "going after" PSA for some bureau or other to request (demand) records to aid in an investigation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent’s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

I hope so, the efforts on BO to out cards have been noble but at best they can scratch the recent surface. I am a bit skeptical about the prospects of obtaining this relief from the courts but it would be a game-changer.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

Which is why legal pressure must be brought to bear. I think all the dots could be connected fairly easily if records are subpoenaed from all sources.