Sellers Beware, Paypal

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I have just got done on the phone with a Paypal dispute resolutions rep and have found out that if you do not have any kind of tracking number for a shipped item that you are responsible for the item. No matter if you have receipt that it was sent.

So everyone if you receive an item thathas no tracking number and you paid thru paypal, you can file a complaint of no reception and win everytime. Great policy.

these guys must be in cohoots the the shipping companies to increase there sales.

I guess I will make Delivery confirmation mandatory for all Paypal purchases. just another cost added to the buyer ohh joy.

It's tougher every day to try to be an honest buyer or seller. No one is responsible for there actions once again.

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Posted By: shammus

I had a buyer file a complaint like this on me once before as well. Paypal sent me the exact same notice saying that I had to provide a tracking number (which I didn't have) or the buyer had to cancel the complaint in order to resolve the issue without me handing out a full refund. Plus, I had sent the item to the buyer's work address which Paypal just happened to have listed as "unconfirmed" so in their eyes I was doubly screwed. This was another lesson I learned from dealing with Paypal, you send an item to an unconfirmed address, you lose ALL your seller rights - tracking number or not. Ridiculous.

Fortunately, the goof that won the auction found the item in his company's mail room. Somehow he had lacked the common sense to check the mailroom before filing the complaint??? I guess he was just expecting someone to deliver the item right to his desk. Anyway, my story ended on a positive note at least, no thanks to Paypal.

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Posted By: petecld

What a corporation.

With eBay, policy is set up to work against the buyer.

With Paypal, policy is set up to work against the seller.

And they are STILL making millions. ???

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Posted By: runscott

After reading the various Paypal threads, I decided to keep using Paypal, but raise my shipping from $1.50 to $2.00 and purchase delivery confirmation for all non-insured Paypal purchases.

Wandered merrily into the post office this morning with my small bubble-mailers containing $15 uninsured, Paypal-purchased cards...nope, can't get delivery confirmation because the envelopes are less than 3/4" thick. To solve this problem:

1. either send by priority mail
2. ...or send by certified mail
3. ...or mail in a box or stick pieces of cardboard in the bubble-mailer, then purchase delivery confirmation
4. ...or up the insurance to $51 (blue form instead of green), costing an additional 80 cents, and if the buyer says he didn't get the card, the post office will track it for an additional $3.

Guess what I decided? bye-bye Paypal. The b*stards are charging me to use their service, and it isn't worth it.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The bubble mailers are close to the 3/4" min, but my local post office is more than happy to let me us DC on them. The other option is stuff a lump of newspaper of something that puffs upt he thickness to 3/4"

Jay

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I personally have decided to pull all the Paypal buying off my auctions after my current auctions are done. i will keep the account open for purchases, and will leave it open for certain transactions. NO more an everytime option. The $30 they made me pay to attic-toys is going to cost them more than that in 1 month. I guess this is the only way we can fight back.

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Posted By: slacks

Okay, but realize that your sales will probably suffer. Many users bid only on PayPal auctions, not to mention those who may bid higher (because it's a credit card), so you're losing some possible sales.

I'm not defending their practices by any means, but just like a merchant that refuses to take credit cards, you're losing business.

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Posted By: petecld

Lee,
I don't take online payment anymore and I don't feel I've suffered on sales but that is just me. I wouldn't make a big issue out of it in your auctions, I would just add the cost to your postage request regardless if they buy insurance.



Scott:
Are you sure it's 3/4 inch? I ran into this and I still insure items in envelopes with just the holder and card board and get insurance. The postal worked had a standards card and she told me if the envelope fits into a slot in the card, it can't be insured and she measured the opening in front of me and it was 1/4 inch tall. This was some time ago so maybe it has changed but I think it's 1/4 inch, not 3/4 inch.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I understand the full implications of my decision, but the majority of my sales are under $100. I can always add the Paypal option at anytime. I have to agree with Pete and Scott Gaynor, that the overall affect probably isn't any less the fees you have to take on from Paypal.
I I am one that likes to use Paypal for the credit card option, but if there is a card I like that doesn't take Paypal I seem to come up with the money.

Lee

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Posted By: Jimmy Scott Elkins

That is why I don't accept PayPal. I was auctioning off some of my newert stuff at the time. Some guy won 2 PSA 10 Randy Johnson UD's which come to over $200. I CLEARLY stated in my auction I was NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR UNINSURED ITEMS! Well, my secretary at the time did all my mailing of eBay items, plus she would bring me back a receipt for the total amount. The idiot that didn't purchase insurance claimed to have never received the items. To make a long story shorter, he got PayPal involved. I offered to show them the receipt from the PO the day the items in question were mailed and also offered a notarized statement from my secretary who mailed the cards. NEITHER were good enough for PayPal! I even told them the guy probably received the cards and is just stating he didn't b/c the Johnson Rookies were going down in value (like all new cards).

Paypal stated that they were going to take the $200+ out of my bank account. The NEXT DAY, I closed the checking account I had my PayPal account under! If my auction disclaimer regarding uninsured items, my word, a receipt from the PO, and my secretary's word were not good enough for Paypal, then I was not going to do business with them. Plus, after eBay fees, on some of the less expensive items, you don't make much of a profit (if any) anyway, then after the Paypal fees, you are in the red! I have quit playing their scam for good!

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Posted By: runscott

She said there was some machine that had a 3/4" inch slot, and that if the mailer fit through the slot she couldn't do DC on it. Seems weird (and I told her so). She also said that until recently DC was not allowed on 1st class - only priority and higher.

Slacks - can't agree at all with you on the "losing business" theory. If this were straight sales I would agree, but it's an auction and the nature of an auction is totally different. Example - let's say bidder #1 and bidder #2 are both itnerested in an item and willing to pay $100, but bidder #1 only has a credit card. The item hits $95, bidder #1 fails to bid because runscott doesn't take Paypal. Bidder #2 goes for it anyway. I don't lose a nickel. If I took Paypal, bidder #1 would have bid $100 and bidder #2 would still have dropped because the item hit his top price. Basically, any item with two serious bidders who have cash or checks, is in no danger of going to cheaply just because I don't take Paypal, and most ebay auctions have a few more than two bidders. Also, keep in mind that if the non-Paypal bidders elect not to play, others with real money may step up. JMO of course, but I'm more than willing to go with it...

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Posted By: slacks

Can't comment on the post office dispute but...

Runscott: You seem like a logical guy, so I'm surprised we disagree on this point. That's okay, but my point is based on the following:

1) The existence of credit cards in this country drives a much higher degree of consumer spending than if everyone had to pay with demand deposits (cash, checks, etc.).

2) PayPal = consumer credit for most people.

3) Therefore, by not accepting PayPal (or credit cards on your own), you are limiting yourself to only those individuals who have the money on deposit AND are willing to go to the bank or post office and buy a money order (or write out a check and wait two weeks).

If you can accept the above as facts, than I think the logical conclusion is that you are excluding a certain number of buyers. Maybe our dispute is if these buyers are prospective buyers of your cards.

If I can hijack your example, what if bidder #1 is watching your auction for a few days, starts falling in love with your card, and keeps raising his bid amount to the point where he is at his bank account limit. But he gets paid just a week after your auction ends, and if you take PayPal, maybe he'll bid $10, $20, maybe $50 more because he can use his credit card and have the cash in time to pay his next monthly bill.

And please don't assume that all high bidders are calm, cool and collected and know exactly what their budgets allow. Quite often they're casual collectors who would like to complete a transaction with a "Buy it Now" and 5 minutes with PayPal and move to the other side of eBay to look for that Lone Ranger lunchbox they had when they were a kid.

If you agree that my point is valid for "straight sales," I would point out that eBay has a whole lot in common with the retail marketplace: product selection, marketing, competition, etc.

PayPal is just another way to offer your customers convenience by making it easier for people for buy your products.

The most wrong statement I’ve heard from many is "it hasn’t hurt me at all." Unless you have a clone in a parallel universe with PayPal, you can't know this! Just because you sell your cards at a price you feel is good doesn’t mean that you couldn’t have realized a higher net profit by offering a higher level of convenience.

Ten years ago grocery stores were one of last holdouts from credit cards, and they've all (at least where I live) realized that they need to let people pay with the means most convenient to them, or they'll lose business and have fewer sales. I see some of the same arguments from this group.

OT, are you a runner? I’m a former bike racer – been trying to make the move from cycling to running for about a year, but my knee is not cooperating.

Never mind the last part if the “run” in "runscott" means something else…

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Posted By: jay behrens

slacks, I have to agree with scott, Pete and others. Since taking PayPal, I can't say that I've seen a an increase in sales prices that really justifies using it. The main reason I stick with it is because I detest having to got to the bank and deposit checks. So it more a convience for me rather me offering as a convience for my customers. I also ahte ahving to wait aroudn for checks after an auctions closes. I'd rather get paid right away and get the damn thing in the mail and out of hair.

Jay

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Slacks,

One of the biggest reasons businesses take credit cards ( and debit cards) is the fact they get the money immediately and if there is a problem with the transaction someone else has to deal with it. Yes, I understand the charges can be disputed but if any of you have tried recovering money on a bad check you understand that it is a royal pain in the whoopiesy daisy. The proof of burden is now on the business that accepts the checks and not the fact that the person writing the check was the one in the wrong.

I agree that Paypal is a convience that is paid for by the sellers, not the buyers (yes, I know you need both to make them work). the obviously do not even stand behind the sellers and make them responsible for the shipping company and who knows what else. I think you see a pattern here of other upstanding sellers getting screwed by ebay and if there are more i would like to here from them.

As I said earlier I will not close my Paypal account, just not use it as common practice in selling. As they say screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. I son't want a second chance to happen, and mine happened with a seller with 100% feedback.
This could happen to anyone out there.

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Posted By: runscott

I wasn't thinking about the "credit card = found money" crowd. Also, people with that mentality might very well be willing to spend more. I'm running some auctions tonight, so I will have to give this more thought.

Also, I received a Paypal yesterday from an "unconfirmed" address, along with a Paypal warning and link to "seller protection" stuff - I couldn't find any indication that I wasn't safe. What's the deal with unconfirmed addresses? Geez, what a bunch of stuff to worry about.

Yes, I'm a runner. 20-65 miles a week depending on what I'm training for. I have a bike, but don't cycle enough - I highly recommend it because it is so much easier on the knees. A lot of runners who start having knee problems will add cycling to their training, at lest until their knees recover. So I think that in the long run, you are doing the right thing - just add some easy runs and stick to soft surfaces (avoid concrete) whenever possible (trails or spongy tracks).

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Posted By: slacks

Yeah, I can see the down sides to PayPal. The posts in the last few days brought up issues I had not been aware of. I won't bore you all with my points again, but suffice it to say that I think it's worthwhile to cast the biggest net as possible. But yes, I'm cocerned about PayPal turning against sellers like they seem to be.

I have to wonder if this has been/will be challenged in court. PayPal can't just make their own rules you know , no matter what we all agreed to when we open accounts, they have to abide by Visa/Mastercard transaction regulations, and I'm suprised to hear that the P.O. receipt isn't good enough. I don't like that at all. And has anyone checked out the USPS website to see what the official rules are for delivery confirmation? I find it disturbing that rules like that are not applied consistently.

Runscott: 20-65 mpw is pretty impressive. I ramped up too quickly and w/too many speed workouts. I wasn't used to the pounding of running. I have to take it more gradually. I like running because you can get a comparable workout in at lot less time, and can still enjoy competetion without the risk of crashes. Cycling can be pretty close to injury-free as long as you keep the rubber side down, although there are some recent concerns about bone-density among long-term cyclists because of the lack of weight-bearing exercise. Good tip on finding more forgiving surfaces to train on - thanks.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Even if you have followed Paypal's policies with tracking, not shipping to an unconfirmed address, not taking multiple payments from one or more buyers on merchandise, there is risk of charge backs.

If a buyer used their credit card to fund the purchase through Paypal and they decide for whatever reason that they want a refund they can dispute the charge with the bank that issued the credit card. Paypal will take the money out of your account and will wait up to 3 months until the bank has rendered a decision before they release the money. If the bank does issue a permanent credit to the buyer the seller will not get the money back.

After reading the two threads about Paypal I am giving serious consideration to not offering it as an option.

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Posted By: leon

I occasionally sell on ebay and definitely "buy" more often. I have never taken on line payments and don't think it's hurt me. Of course I might not know as you don't know what you don't know....huh? What did I just say? Ignorance is bliss or some crap like that. I will take personal checks, and call me stupid, but I don't hold them till they clear. I feel if someone writes a hot check for a card they got bigger issues and I will just turn it over to the authorities after trying to resolve otherwise. To be hypocritical I do like folks that take PayPal as it makes the process that much easier. If they don't take paypal I will either send the check or money order (if I want the item faster). I have so many other things to worry about ebay payments don't really make my radar screen..... best regards