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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-14-2022 at 06:37 PM. |
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I think it’s more a case of Kaline being under-rated, rather than Clemente being over-rated.
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I’d say Kaline was better, but we are splitting hairs. Their defense was similar with Clemente having a better dWAR.
Fun fact: kaline won the Roberto Clemente award in 1973
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I think that's probably right, although Bill James makes an interesting case that Clemente was somewhat overrated.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him “Bob” or “Bobby” or even “Robby,” nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-14-2022 at 08:30 PM. |
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From the Hall of Fame website.
Another practice of the media also upset Clemente. It did not involve his teammates, but rather had to do with his heritage and ethnicity. A number of writers and broadcasters insisted on calling Clemente “Bob” or “Bobby,” instead of his given name of Roberto. Even Clemente’s baseball cards listed him as “Bob Clemente,” a practice that persisted through the 1969 Topps set. Clemente did not like this practice, an effort at Americanizing him. He felt that it was disrespectful to his Puerto Rican and Latino heritage. When members of the media interviewed him and called him Bob or Bobby directly, he would correct them. “My name is Roberto Clemente,” he said repeatedly. In spite of his complaints, the practice of referring to Clemente as Bob, especially in print, would continue throughout the 1960s. https://baseballhall.org/discover/ba...o-superstardom
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I'd be interested to see where that idea came from. As for who was the better player--I think it is difficult to make the case that Kaline was a better all-around player. Clemente is arguably the greatest fielding right-fielder ever. Tim McCarver was right when he said about Clemente "some right fielders have rifles for arms, but he had a howitzer." Clemente led the league in assists by a right fielder five times (1958, 1960, 1961, 1966 & 1967, finishing in the top ten six more times), in putouts by a right fielder twice (1958 & 1961, finishing in the top ten 14 more times), double plays by a right fielder three times (1955, 1961 & 1967, finishing in the top ten 9 more times). Clemente won 12 gold gloves, the most of any RF ever, and tied with Willie Mays as the most by an Outfielder. He is also tied with Jesse Barfield with the highest dWar for a right-fielder with 12.2 (yes I know dWar is flawed, but still). Clemente was a fantastic hitter, maybe just a hair below Kaline. As someone already pointed out, Clemente's career slugging was only 5 points below Kaline's (.480 to .475) and they were similarly close in OPS and OPS+. Although Kaline clearly had an edge on Clemente in power and walks (Clemente was a bad ball hitter), Clemente's lifetime batting average was 20 points higher than Kaline's. Let's not discount Clemente having put the Pirates on his back and winning the World Series MVP in '71. If baseball was only about hitting, Kaline would probably have the edge. But Clemente was a much better fielder than Kaline, and overall a better player. Last edited by cgjackson222; 09-14-2022 at 09:20 PM. |
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As mentioned, I was at the WS games that were played in Baltimore in 1971. Obviously a small sample size, but his greatness was truly on display. My dad who had grown up a fan in New York and saw lots of DiMaggio and then Mantle was very enthusiastic about him.
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A much better fielder ? Did you ever see Kaline play Right Field ? His arm was unbelievable, a line drive throw to Home Plate. Again I think they were both great outfielders. Clemente had 100's of outfield assists. I was surprised that Kaline had more SB's.
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great thread and great conversation.
This thread has opened my eyes more about Kaline and everyone is right Clemente and his personality was larger than life. It is real close but I would probably give it to Clemente.
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Clemente or Kaline?
Folks- my ID should give my vote away Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was “overrated”- right, good call (sarcasm font)…One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don’t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch…Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King
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Clemente 255 Kaline 146 Total Zone Runs Clemente 205 Mays 173 Kaline 153 Clemente was the best defensive outfielder of his era by a wide margin. He led in NL in outfield assists as a rookie and developed a reputation as the best arm in baseball. Players knew not to challenge his arm, yet he still threw out more runners than anyone else. |
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