1871-1872 Warren CDVs vs 1873 Boston team cabinet

[orator1]

A previous thread noted the fact that 1871-1872 Warren CDVs were used to create the 1873 Boston team cabinet.

The players in the composite, by row, are:
G. Wright, Ross Barnes, Al Spalding
Andy Leonard, H. Wright, J. O'Rourke
Jack Manning, Harry Schafer, Deacon White
Dave Birdsall, Charlie Sweasy

The team cabinet pictures three players for whom a CDV is not verified (at least not listed in the SCBC); Jack Manning, Charlie Sweasy, and Deacon White.

So the questions are: Do CDVs exist for Manning, Sweasy, and White?
Is it safe to assume that these three CDVs did exist and were used to make this composite?
Has anyone seen them before at auction, at National, etc.?

[GaryPassamonte]

Copies of the White and Manning CdVs are pictured on page 27 of the 1984 National Pastime which was dedicated to 19th century baseball. The two CdVs are credited to the New York Public Library. I have never seen a Sweasy CdV, but obviously, one existed at some time or possibly still does.

[uffda51]

I'm lucky enough to have the Warren Birdsall CDV. Does anyone know if these CDVs are one-offs are do multiple copies of at least some of them exist?

[barrysloate]

More than one of each exists for most of the players, but not all. I'm pretty sure the Spalding is unique. At least it was when I had the composite.

[GaryPassamonte]

Bruce,
Multiple copies exist of some of these CdVs. I know of multiple copies of G. Wright, Barnes, Schafer, McVey, Gould, Ryan, Birdsall, and Leonard. I would estimate 2-4 examples for most players. There were even autographed G. Wright, Barnes, and McVey copies in Mastro's 11/2000 auction.

Barry, We posted at almost the same time.

[orator1]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Copies of the White and Manning CdVs are pictured on page 27 of the 1984 National Pastime which was dedicated to 19th century baseball. The two CdVs are credited to the New York Public Library. I have never seen a Sweasy CdV, but obviously, one existed at some time or possibly still does.

Multiple copies exist of some of these CdVs. I know of multiple copies of G. Wright, Barnes, Schafer, McVey, Gould, Ryan, Birdsall, and Leonard. I would estimate 2-4 examples for most players. There were even autographed G. Wright, Barnes, and McVey copies in Mastro's 11/2000 auction.

Gary - It appears that the White CDV in the 1984 National Pastime is different than the White image in the 1873 Boston team composite. The 1873 composite image of White must be from a different CDV. There is only one White CDV catalogued in the SCBC, so this CDV from the composite (if it exists) would be a 2nd variation.

Is anyone aware of a White CDV with the pose from the composite, or other Warren CDVs with player pose variations?
I'd like to determine how many different Warren CDVs exist, including variations.

[GaryPassamonte]

Good catch on the White, Paul. The neckwear is quite different, as well as White's face and hair. After looking closer at the Spaldings, it appears they are from a slightly different angle, also. I've posted my Barnes CdV and it too appears slightly different than the image in the composite. His shoulders are more square in my CdV.
An additional point of interest that may have something to do with poses is where the Warren endorsement is located. Most have Warren as well as a Boston address on the front. My Barnes has Warren and Boston and Cambridgeport written on the reverse. This leads to the probability of the CdVs being issued on separate occasions.

[orator1]

Gary, you are absolutely right...the Spaldings are different.
Looks like he's wearing the same tie, but the view is from slightly different angles.

[barrysloate]

Probably different images exist from the same photo shoot.

[orator1]

This John J. Ryan was sold in a lot of 8 Warren CDVs in Sotheby's December 2005 auction. For those who have the catalogue, is the Ryan image any clearer than this online image? This is the only "Ryan batting" CDV I could locate (maybe 1 of 1?), so if someone could post or email a better resolution image I'd appreciate it.

[barrysloate]

Paul- those are actually Warren cabinets, and not CdV's.

[orator1]

Barry, thanks for the correction. I know this is a pretty basic question, but how can one distinguish between a Warren CDV and a Warren cabinet by looking at the scans?

[barrysloate]

You can tell by looking at the mount. The lettering is small and spacing is different from a CdV. Also, I remember the lot. I was part of a group (one of that group has already posted on this thread) that was trying to buy the bunch of them. No luck.

[GaryPassamonte]

You know, Paul, I don't think I've ever seen the O'Rourke Warren CdV anyplace. Do you know of one?

[orator1]

The first time I saw a Warren CDV of O'Rourke was when it was pictured in a VCBC article, issue #34. The article was about the National Association's 1872 season. I later learned that O'Rourke's Warren CDV was sold in the 1991 Sotheby's Copeland auction, lot 797. It has O'Rourke's name handwritten on the front like the Barnes CDV, and is the same image used in the 1873 Boston team composite - his first year with Boston.

[barrysloate]

I just checked the Copeland catalog and lot 797 is indeed O'Rourke. Interestingly, the previous lot, 796, is purported to be Ross Barnes but I always believed it was misidentified.

[bmarlowe1]

Was the "Barnes" this one?

[barrysloate]

Yes Mark, that's the one. And it's not Barnes.

[bmarlowe1]

It surely is not.

[oldjudge]

When did accuracy ever get in the way of a sale to Copeland?

[barrysloate]

Jay- I've learned never to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by orator1

Barry, thanks for the correction. I know this is a pretty basic question, but how can one distinguish between a Warren CDV and a Warren cabinet by looking at the scans?

Paul,

Also, I believe that the height and width proportions of cabinets and CDVs are generally different. For example, if they were both sized to the same height on your computer screen, the cabinet would be wider than the CDV.

[barrysloate]

We're being spammed by this guy all over the board.