Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Johnny630]

I agree with you Pete..... however The Problem Lies with PSA too........

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i stand corrected...and I stand by calling this behavior "idiotic!"

You’re right !!!

I don’t buy those sales numbers not for one second !!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This problem lies with the "idiots" paying $40K for a pristine...altered...4th year clemente card.

Again, no lawsuits so people are obviously still happy/being reimbursed...

some people said why would there be lawsuits over cards that are less than 10k at issue but i think everyone will agree now there appears to be a number of cards with potential damages of over 10k...heck over 200k etc.....still it appears everyone is happy....hard to say this is rocking the hobby and 40k+ grade increases keep happening when no lawsuits filed...people appear to be happy or dont care.....basically there dont appear to be any victims....

i know i know...'its too early to tell etc'

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

again, no lawsuits so people are obviously still happy/being reimbursed...

Some people said why would there be lawsuits over cards that are less than 10k at issue but i think everyone will agree now there appears to be a number of cards with potential damages of over 10k...heck over 200k etc.....still it appears everyone is happy....hard to say this is rocking the hobby and 40k+ grade increases keep happening when no lawsuits filed...people appear to be happy or dont care.....basically there dont appear to be any victims....

I know i know...'its too early to tell etc'

stoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

stoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

I think people are tired of saying there are all these problems but nothing has changed.

[perezfan]

We are indeed tired and frustrated, yes...

But we also realize it takes more time for this to fully play out. I personally don't want the FBI to make snap decisions to include a few slaps on the wrist. I'm hoping they conduct a deep and involved investigation, in which all the connected dealers, card doctors and TPGs are identified, exposed to the public, put out of business, and punished accordingly.

The deeper they investigate, the more likely it is that they'll find the damning evidence they need to convict. New fraud and corruption is turning up every single day. So it's probably a good thing that this is dragging on.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

We are indeed tired and frustrated, yes...

But we also realize it takes more time for this to fully play out. I personally don't want the FBI to make snap decisions to include a few slaps on the wrist. I'm hoping they conduct a deep and involved investigation, in which all the connected dealers, card doctors and TPGs are identified, exposed to the public, put out of business, and punished accordingly.

The deeper they investigate, the more likely it is that they'll find the damning evidence they need to convict. New fraud and corruption is turning up every single day. So it's probably a good thing that this is dragging on.

Mark I hope you’re right sir ! You’re much more optimistic then me on how we see this all playing out. Everything is fake to me....the sales...the registry....and most definitely hundreds of thousands of cards with grades that are doctored.

[perezfan]

The optimism is probably indeed futile. But I still think it’s ridiculous to expect finality on the part of law enforcement anytime soon. It should take a larger chunk of time for them to sort this out. Perhaps nothing will come of it, and this is all just wishful thinking. Hope that’s not the case.

And I do agree with you about everything being fake. Fake grades, fake registries, and fake trust.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The optimism is probably indeed futile. But I still think it’s ridiculous to expect finality on the part of law enforcement anytime soon. It should take a larger chunk of time for them to sort this out. Perhaps nothing will come of it, and this is all just wishful thinking. Hope that’s not the case.

And I do agree with you about everything being fake. Fake grades, fake registries, and fake trust.

Right now people are sliding in 'perhaps nothing will come of it', now that its about 8 or so months later. I would think if there are criminal transactions going on over and over the authorities dont sit and wait for every last one to be discovered. Usually I would think some arrests are made to help find out more info and follow the money/work up the chain. I wouldnt expect finality but i would of expected something.

However if there are no 'victims' at least victims to an extent someone would file lawsuit over and not enough damages at issue (i dont think fbi are brought in for 200 bucks etc) i dont think anything will be done.

Everyone was jumping on me for saying nothing was done a month after all of this..now we are at 9 months?, what about after 2 years.....sooner or later time has to be an issue...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Right now people are sliding in 'perhaps nothing will come of it', now that its about 8 or so months later. I would think if there are criminal transactions going on over and over the authorities dont sit and wait for every last one to be discovered. Usually I would think some arrests are made to help find out more info and follow the money/work up the chain. I wouldnt expect finality but i would of expected something.

However if there are no 'victims' at least victims to an extent someone would file lawsuit over and not enough damages at issue (i dont think fbi are brought in for 200 bucks etc) i dont think anything will be done.

Everyone was jumping on me for saying nothing was done a month after all of this..now we are at 9 months?, what about after 2 years.....sooner or later time has to be an issue...

How would you know what the FBI is and isn't doing?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How would you know what the FBI is and isn't doing?

Of course dont know what is going on behind the scenes. i am just saying there are no arrests, if we hear of no arrests in 2 years, i can give an opinion that there appear to be no arrests in 2 years ...

6 years from now will i still be asked about what do i know what the FBI is doing?.

i still wont know especially if there is no announcement of any arrest in the hobby ..

if you heard about an arrest i stand corrected..

[Johnny630]

In my mind irregardless of what the authorities uncover and or prosecute it’s already all out there, everyone has all the information to make an informed decision based upon the facts and evidence already discovered. No matter what happens in regards to prosecution or lack there of is going to change my mind, it’s made up. To Me It’s all priced in. This hobby/industry has survived all the scummy past wrong doings and it will survive this one as well.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

In my mind irregardless of what the authorities uncover and or prosecute it’s already all out there, everyone has all the information to make an informed decision based upon the facts and evidence already discovered. No matter what happens in regards to prosecution or lack there of is going to change my mind, it’s made up. To Me It’s all priced in. This hobby/industry has survived all the scummy past wrong doings and it will survive this one as well.

right, another post saying theres a chance nothing is going to happen. People have said its rocked the hobby, my whole point of all my posts as this did not rock the hobby for all the reasons i have stated

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right, another post saying theres a chance nothing is going to happen. People have said its rocked the hobby, my whole point of all my posts as this did not rock the hobby for all the reasons i have stated

As of right now I’m not gonna argue with you on that, I don’t not disagree. I also didn’t say there’s a chance nothing is going to happen. I said it’s not going to matter either way in my mind. Capiche

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

In my mind irregardless of what the authorities uncover and or prosecute it’s already all out there, everyone has all the information to make an informed decision based upon the facts and evidence already discovered. No matter what happens in regards to prosecution or lack there of is going to change my mind, it’s made up. To Me It’s all priced in. This hobby/industry has survived all the scummy past wrong doings and it will survive this one as well.

Who is "everyone"? The fact that (i) people who read this Board or (ii) registry collectors who are incentivized not to do anything to reduce the confidence the hobby has in slabbed cards may possess this information does not predict how the next generation of collectors will view TPGs. And it is those collectors who will be the ultimate deciders of whether slabbed cards hold their value.

I already know deep-pocketed investors who considered investing in high grade slabbed vintage cards but who backed off due to the info that has been coming out over the past several months. I don't believe anybody can predict with much certainty how this will play out over the coming months/years, except to say that in my experience eventually the market absorbs into its pricing the reality of what something is.

[mq711]

The troubling thing is even folks who know about the scams still do business with the scammers. Nothing will really change until a financial message is sent and a lot of collectors refuse to send that message.

I wouldn't think this investigation is very high on the FBI's priority list and if an arrest is eventually made, is a prosecutor going to put much effort into a trial?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Right now people are sliding in 'perhaps nothing will come of it', now that its about 8 or so months later. I would think if there are criminal transactions going on over and over the authorities dont sit and wait for every last one to be discovered. Usually I would think some arrests are made to help find out more info and follow the money/work up the chain. I wouldnt expect finality but i would of expected something.

However if there are no 'victims' at least victims to an extent someone would file lawsuit over and not enough damages at issue (i dont think fbi are brought in for 200 bucks etc) i dont think anything will be done.

Everyone was jumping on me for saying nothing was done a month after all of this..now we are at 9 months?, what about after 2 years.....sooner or later time has to be an issue...

You don't arrest people you think have information, you subpoena them. That's been done.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

In my mind irregardless of what the authorities uncover and or prosecute it’s already all out there, everyone has all the information to make an informed decision based upon the facts and evidence already discovered. No matter what happens in regards to prosecution or lack there of is going to change my mind, it’s made up. To Me It’s all priced in. This hobby/industry has survived all the scummy past wrong doings and it will survive this one as well.

Agree with Corey on the "everyone" component of this statement...

I think it's still just the opposite. I would bet that less than 5% of active card collectors frequent net54 and other forums. And I'd bet that less than 10% of the buying/submitting public is aware of what has taken place. Most probably suspect that a few altered cards have snuck through, but have no idea of the extent, or the iron-clad "before and after" evidence.

Not sure if the word will ever spread to an actual majority of collectors, but I suppose time will tell.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree with Corey on the "everyone" component of this statement...

I think it's still just the opposite. I would bet that less than 5% of active card collectors frequent net54 and other forums. And I'd bet that less than 10% of the buying/submitting public is aware of what has taken place. Most probably suspect that a few altered cards have snuck through, but have no idea of the extent, or the iron-clad "before and after" evidence.

Not sure if the word will ever spread to an actual majority of collectors, but I suppose time will tell.

Ok not everyone. I will preface the information is out there for all to do what they will with it :-)

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree with Corey on the "everyone" component of this statement...

I think it's still just the opposite. I would bet that less than 5% of active card collectors frequent net54 and other forums. And I'd bet that less than 10% of the buying/submitting public is aware of what has taken place. Most probably suspect that a few altered cards have snuck through, but have no idea of the extent, or the iron-clad "before and after" evidence.

Not sure if the word will ever spread to an actual majority of collectors, but I suppose time will tell.

I agree with both of you. However, I hope it's blind ignorance to the scandal, and not willful ignorance. Following the many auctions out there since this scandal hit, PSA and PSA graded cards are still exalted as being a selling feature for a higher prices. And overall I'm not seeing much change in that, for the mid-grades I collect in (5-7).

[perezfan]

True...

But I did notice that Huggins & Scott has A LOT of ungraded / raw cards featured in their current auction. Most are in group lots, but still good to see!

[Johnny630]

The sad part is many of the alleged longtime card doctors are still going/selling strong in the hobby year after year. At every major card show either set up or walking the floor.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

The sad part is many of the alleged longtime card doctors are still going/selling strong in the hobby year after year. At every major card show either set up or walking the floor.

IMO, even now, the majority of altered cards are not traceable because they were purchased raw.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Say Hey!!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5934

[Johnny630]

Awful....complete disgrace

[JeremyW]

Seems like if a card has four sharp corners, the doctors can do everything needed to take a 6 or a 7 to an 8 or a 9 without the graders even noticing. I feel sorry for the guy that bought the '51 Mays.

Jeremy W@ggoner

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unfortunately, with S_C's randomly generated certs, there is no way to know what else was submitted with it.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Say Hey!!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5934

Did you notice some of the postings prior to the Mays?

This '58 Clemente is another doozy in regards to bump-ups and profit made, yet the poster can't see any alterations. I'll only add that all four corners should be pristine under magnification to garner a PSA 10, which should not be the case for a PSA 8.5.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5907

[Johnny630]

This is such a racket.........what a fraud over inflated industry.....complete sham notice all of these doctored cards end up in auctions....be a man and sell your butcher jobs yourself. No they hide behind the auction house......what complete BS

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You don't arrest people you think have information, you subpoena them. That's been done.

Right but you also do arrest people and get more information as well if you have enough to arrest.....its not unheard of to get more info from underlings to work your way up.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Seems like if a card has four sharp corners, the doctors can do everything needed to take a 6 or a 7 to an 8 or a 9 without the graders even noticing. I feel sorry for the guy that bought the '51 Mays.

Jeremy W@ggoner

Of course someone will say that the pictures are still too hard to tell if its the same card. Still, i thought all of the damages to the buyer are only for cards for less than $10,000.00 thus thats why there are no lawsuits..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Right but you also do arrest people and get more information as well if you have enough to arrest.....its not unheard of to get more info from underlings to work your way up.

Why don't you call Brian then and suggest he arrest some graders?

[Leon]

While I agree it is their money, if they want to waste it on altered cards, it is their business. Bless their hearts. A fool and his money....

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i stand corrected...and I stand by calling this behavior "idiotic!"

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why don't you call Brian then and suggest he arrest some graders?

some sellers on ebay should be arrested at their list sale price..

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Say Hey!!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5934

another day another 60 k between friends...nah, nothing to see. Turn those machines back ON!!!!!!!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Of course someone will say that the pictures are still too hard to tell if its the same card. Still, i thought all of the damages to the buyer are only for cards for less than $10,000.00 thus thats why there are no lawsuits..

there are so many cards in this scam over 50K they are UNCOUNTABLE...hopefully you collectors are catching on to the level of this fraudulent scam effing, that has kicked the teeth in of hobbyist for YEARS?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Seems like if a card has four sharp corners, the doctors can do everything needed to take a 6 or a 7 to an 8 or a 9 without the graders even noticing. I feel sorry for the guy that bought the '51 Mays.

Jeremy W@ggoner

AND WHY do you think that 6's and 7's are so expensive in the first place?...BECAUSE YOU ARE BIDDING AGAINST THE EFFIN CARD DOCTORS and idiot dealers like Brent Mastro who infected the hobby like a festering boil between your butt cheeks....ready to break them out, trim them and soak them up and re-sell, rinse and repeat.

[Johnny630]

People are Hooked On Newport Beach Slabs like a Trailer.....it’s a masterpiece in marketing. Doesn’t matter how altered the cards are once they slab it it’s Gold Jerry Gold.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

another day another 60 k between friends...nah, nothing to see. Turn those machines back ON!!!!!!!

dont worry Peter C and others are working it out..

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

People are Hooked On Newport Beach Slabs like a Trailer.....it’s a masterpiece in marketing. Doesn’t matter how altered the cards are once they slab it it’s Gold Jerry Gold.

this ones SGC.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

this ones SGC.

they're addicted to them too.....Silver Jerry, Silver !

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

they're addicted to them too.....Silver Jerry, Silver !

r u talkin' "why do they call it ovaltine?"

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

r u talkin' "why do they call it ovaltine?"

YES KENNY Bania....Soup isn't a Meal

[Peter_Spaeth]

Poof.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...yist-an-update

[Leon]

He locked it, he didn't poof (delete) it. I guess he poofed the discussion.
With his role on the PSA board I don't blame him for what he had to do. He works for a public company with lawyers apparently doing their jobs..

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Poof.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...yist-an-update

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

He locked it, he didn't poof (delete) it. I guess he poofed the discussion.
With his role on the PSA board I don't blame him for what he had to do. He works for a public company with lawyers apparently doing their jobs..

PSA was doing the same damn thing long before it became part of a public company. It's the corporate culture, no dissent allowed, or even hard questions.

[Johnny630]

They have a Teflon Business Model Nothing Sticks

[EvilKing00]

DBBDE500-E839-433C-AC07-4D87C7C9DCC5.jpg

Im no expert, but i dont like this card

[perezfan]

The WaJo looks ok to me. Appears to have full borders and natural corner wear. I think a doctor would fiddle with that upper-left corner, to lessen the chip.

Who's selling that card?

[edhans]

[QUOTE Im no expert, but i dont like this card[/QUOTE]

I don't think he's talking about alteration, but authenticity. And I'm skeptical of it as well. It's on ebay now.