Is CC Sabathia a Hall of Famer?

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does Rizzuto get in playing for Phila/KC, or the Browns/Orioles?

I always suspected that Rizzuto got in because Pee Wee Reese was already in.
Rizzuto had a higher BA & won an MVP & was every bit the contemporary.
Would Reese be in if he played w/ the Phillies, Indian's or A's?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

I always suspected that Rizzuto got in because Pee Wee Reese was already in.
Rizzuto had a higher BA & won an MVP & was every bit the contemporary.
Would Reese be in if he played w/ the Phillies, Indian's or A's?

I never saw either play, but statistically there is no comparison. Reese was far better than Rizzuto in almost every respect, while Rizzuto played for a more dominant team. I don't think that particular comparison is even very close.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Joe Gordon -- is he in if his whole career was in Cleveland? I doubt it. Lazzeri?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Joe Gordon -- is he in if his whole career was in Cleveland? I doubt it. Lazzeri?

I always pulled for Gordon. He was, at least according to Bill James, defensively great last I looked. Allegedly had real good range. I didn't see him play and don't know. Who are the great 2B's in the HOF? Lajoie, Collins, Frisch, Hornsby, Gehringer, Robinson, Morgan. Biggio and Carew for part of their careers. Alomar? Maz was defensively the best as I understand it.

Pretty small group. I don't have a problem with McPhee, Herman, Lazzeri, Gordon, Doerr, Schoendienst, Fox, or Sandberg. Evers I question.

Buddy Myers was pretty much a Herman clone. Jeff Kent was pretty good, at least offensively, for a while. He gets no love. I could maybe see Whitaker. I loved Frank White, but he has no chance. Randolph either IMO. Who else?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I always pulled for Gordon. He was, at least according to Bill James, defensively great last I looked. Allegedly had real good range. I didn't see him play and don't know. Who are the great 2B's in the HOF? Lajoie, Collins, Frisch, Hornsby, Gehringer, Robinson, Morgan. Biggio and Carew for part of their careers. Alomar? Maz was defensively the best as I understand it.

Pretty small group. I don't have a problem with McPhee, Herman, Lazzeri, Gordon, Doerr, Schoendienst, Fox, or Sandberg. Evers I question.

Buddy Myers was pretty much a Herman clone. Jeff Kent was pretty good, at least offensively, for a while. He gets no love. I could maybe see Whitaker. I loved Frank White, but he has no chance. Randolph either IMO. Who else?

I think you hit everyone I can think of. Current players you have Cano, Utley, Pedroia in similar territory I think.
Oh, you forgot Grich. He ranks very high with the metrics, top 10.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I always pulled for Gordon. He was, at least according to Bill James, defensively great last I looked.

My problem with Gordon is I don't see him as particularly superior to Vern Stephens, who played all around the infield instead of just at 2nd, but if one is in the other belongs.

Just double checked and he only played short and third, mainly short, so a middle infielder but not a 2b.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My problem with Gordon is I don't see him as particularly superior to Vern Stephens, who played all around the infield instead of just at 2nd, but if one is in the other belongs.

Just double checked and he only played short and third, mainly short, so a middle infielder but not a 2b.

Vern Stephens is vastly underrated IMO. I could very much support him because he was offensively a massive player in the '50s. How many SS's have led the league in HR's or RBi's? Banks, Wagner, George Davis (dunno how much SS he played that year) and Dahlen are who I can think of that did one or the other. It could easily be argued that he was the best shortstop of the late '40 to mid '50s, but no one even knows who he is now, which is beyond pathetic. He got a nod for the Veteran's Committee once, I believe, and that was it. He was a force back then and it is really too bad he gets no love. I have, I think, all of his mainstream cards because I'm a fan.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

I always suspected that Rizzuto got in because Pee Wee Reese was already in.
Rizzuto had a higher BA & won an MVP & was every bit the contemporary.
Would Reese be in if he played w/ the Phillies, Indian's or A's?

Rizzuto couldn't hold Pee Wee's Jock. He was the third best NY Short Stop, just Alvin Dark didn't play his whole career with the Giants.

[lowpopper]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Rizzuto couldn't hold Pee Wee's Jock.

What a quote! lol

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Rizzuto couldn't hold Pee Wee's Jock. He was the third best NY Short Stop, just Alvin Dark didn't play his whole career with the Giants.

Career stats of the two are very similar. Rizzuto won three major awards and was second in MVP voting once. Reese won no major awards. Also, Phil had just a few more championship rings. However, I see them both as borderline HOFers at best.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Career stats of the two are very similar. Rizzuto won three major awards and was second in MVP voting once. Reese won no major awards. Also, Phil had just a few more championship rings. However, I see them both as borderline HOFers at best.

Reese: WAR - 66.3; AB- 8058; H- 2178; Hr - 126; BA - .269; R - 1338; RBI - 885; SB - 232; OBP - .366; SLG - .377; OPS - .743. 10 AS games.

Rizzuto: WAR - 40.8; AB - 5816; H - 1588; HR - 38; BA - .273; R - 873; RBI - 563; SB - 149; OBP - .351; SLG - .355; OPS - .706. 5 AS games.

Both were leaders. No dispute about that. Both lost 3 years to WWII. And I have no problem with either of them being in. But in a blind taste test, which one do you take? IMO, that's an easy call and it isn't the Scooter.

[oldjudge]

Kenny—I agree at first glance (and maybe second) Reese’s stats look better. He had over 1/3 more ABs, so Hits/yr are about the same. Reese hit for a little more power, although neither would be confused with a home run hitter. Rizzuto won a slew of rings and Pee Wee, near the end of his career, won one. Rizzuto was an MVP and runner up MVP. Reese was never the bride or the bridesmaid. Not that it should matter but Phil was an American institution. I never heard Pee Wee on a Meat Loaf album. He was the most entertaining broadcaster I ever heard and was the nicest guy ever in person. i’ll take Phil every day if the week and twice on Sunday.

[Tabe]

My vote on CC is no. 9 seasons of 3.90 or higher ERA. Yeah, he's got 250 wins but he got there by averaging 8 wins a year since 2013.

Not a terrible selection but no.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

CC is pitching in a hitters ballpark, against a DH, in one of the most hitter friendly ballparks in baseball. At the same time, he has earned a roster spot playing on one of the most competitive teams in one of the most demanding markets in baseball. He is not compiling numbers. He is a productive and important part of the team. He has a career war which places him in company with many other HOF pitchers. ERA does not tell the whole story. He is almost 100 wins over .500 with an ERA+ of 117. Combined with a CY and a WS he will probably be a first ballot guy.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Career stats of the two are very similar. Rizzuto won three major awards and was second in MVP voting once. Reese won no major awards. Also, Phil had just a few more championship rings. However, I see them both as borderline HOFers at best.

never mind, Kenny Cole said the same thing.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Rizzuto couldn't hold Pee Wee's Jock.

Maybe, but he did play a major role in arguably the greatest rock & roll song of all time!


Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall of Stats says Reese 120 (100 is HOF worthy), Rizzuto 77.