Should Show Promoters Include Clauses That Prevent Dealers From Working Other Shows?

[Buythatcard]

In case you haven't heard, dealers that recently worked one show in PA, will not be allowed to work another show in the same area. Apparently, a promoter had this clause which says that if a dealer worked one promoter, they would not be able to work at another show within a certain time period.

I attend both shows as a buyer and am not happy about that clause.

I am curious what others think about this arrangement.

[mordecaibrown]

My understanding is that it is opposite of what you have stated; however, I am not a dealer.

I was under the belief that David Hunt (Philly Show) told dealers that if they participated in any other Philadelphia area locations, they would not be allowed to attend the Philly Show (Valley Forge).

I agree with your anger; however, I believe it is aimed at the wrong show. But the dealers that setup at the shows would know better than I and hopefully can clarify.

[Buythatcard]

I have spoken to some dealers and was told it was CSA who prevented them from working the Philly show.

[tedzan]

You have it in reverse of what it actually is.

Furthermore, the veteran vintage dealers that have switched to setting-up at the Oaks show are not interested in setting-up at
the Valley Forge show for numerous reasons.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

I have spoken to some dealers and was told it was CSA who prevented them from working the Philly show.

Except for being exactly opposite you are correct . The rule is on Hunt Auctions website. CSA didn't have that silly rule, that I am aware of.

[Buythatcard]

I apologize to CSA if I have my facts twisted. I was just going by what I heard from some other dealers.

My post should refer to any promoter and not single one out.

[ThoseBackPages]

what year is it again? 1987?

Unreal that ANY promoter in 2011 would turn away business

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

what year is it again? 1987?

Unreal that ANY promoter in 2011 would turn away business

+1

[basesareempty]

I believe that this will be the beginning of the end for the Philly show as most serious dealers and auction houses have chosen CSA. I think this policy is rediculous and I think there will be other dealers to follow. Table fees for CSA about 60% of Philly for the same amount of space is a no brainer in this economy. Plus the Valley Forge site is awful especially with all of the construction going on in and around the hotel.I perfer the Expo center sites for these shows as there is usually easy access and ample parking. CSA just needs to beef up their advertising and I think that the Eastern PA market is theirs for the taking.

[Exhibitman]

First of all, as weak as shows have been over the last decade, anything that spurs more of them is great.

Second, there is something wrong with trying to prevent independent businessmen from doing business with others. I don't see the promoter rushing to guarantee a profitable day for the dealers--there's no responsibility taken for the dealer--so why should he be able to keep them from setting up at a different show?

Third, I don't see the other show as competition. If it is on the same weekend it is competition. If not, it is complementary. Collectors are gluttons; we take all the cards we can get. If there is a show every week we go to a show every week. I recall during the 1990s going to multiple shows every weekend here in SoCal. Sometimes I'd hit two shows a day.

Finally, what the Philly promoter is doing is probably an illegal conspiracy in restraint of trade, especially the market allocation aspect [i.e., demanding that the vendors agree not to work in the specific area in any other show]. I'd love to see him try to enforce that contract provision.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

what year is it again? 1987?

Unreal that ANY promoter in 2011 would turn away business

What I was thinking. There were some greedy promoters in certain regional locations in CT who used to pull this crap back then. Of course this was back in the day when every table at every show used to be filled.

Didn't think anybody would be stupid enough to pull this kind of move in this day and age. Really short-sighted thinking.

[HRBAKER]

Based on any show that I have been to in the last five years (sans The National), I don't see any room for running off dealers. The show business must be healthier than it appears.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

what year is it again? 1987?

Based on the website, maybe.

[vic]

We're Sorry! Memory Lane NOT attending Philly Show this weekend!

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

what year is it again? 1987?

Unreal that ANY promoter in 2011 would turn away business

Yes, I agree, this happened in the 80's and 90's at shows here in Michigan.

If it is spelled out in the contract though, the promoter can do this. But, why he would turn away business is crazy.


Joe

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Yes, I agree, this happened in the 80's and 90's at shows here in Michigan.

If it is spelled out in the contract though, the promoter can do this. But, why he would turn away business is crazy.


Joe

Isn't it meant to be a punishment so that they won't do it again next year?

Edited to add: the clause was probably put in initially because he thought the dealers would honor it and skip the earlier shows. Now he has to enforce it, or dealers won't take his contracts seriously. Now he has to decide whether or not it's a good idea to include such clauses in future contracts. I think the consensus is "no", but I'd be interested to hear Hunt's opinion on this.

[GrayGhost]

Its "heavy handed" and may hurt the overall dealer "quality" of a show, but the promoter has EVERY RIGHT IMO to do this, IF IT IS IN A CONTRACT. That is simply why when u sign a contract for anything in life, YOU READ IT.

Not liking it being in there is understandable, but the best thing to do is not do the show then, if you can't agree to terms in the contract, even if they seem to be restraint of trade, etc.

[Leon]

I hope any of the folks that voted yes to this will let us know their thinking? It baffles me how anyone would think this is a good thing?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

I hope any of the folks that voted yes to this will let us know their thinking? It baffles me how anyone would think this is a good thing?

Look at the title of the thread, then the title of the poll. They contradict and probably confused some people.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by Leon

I hope any of the folks that voted yes to this will let us know their thinking? It baffles me how anyone would think this is a good thing?

I voted " I don't care" as it really doesn't matter much to ME. That said, I never said it was a "good thing", just IN THE PROMOTERS Right to do it. So, maybe my reply above wasn't clear enough?

Scott Roberts

[Buythatcard]

My title did contradict the Poll question. I changed the title to match the poll question.

I do apologize for screwing that up.

Two screwups in one thread.

Hope Leon doesn't kick me off Net54.

Sorry

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

My title did contradict the Poll question. I changed the title to match the poll question.

I do apologize for screwing that up.

Two screwups in one thread.

Hope Leon doesn't kick me off Net54.

Sorry

You ARE still way behind me in screwing up in one thread. Not even close...all is well. Maybe that is why folks voted yes initially though.....

[DJR]

.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Look at the title of the thread, then the title of the poll. They contradict and probably confused some people.

I voted yes for exactly the reason Runscott mentioned...a second after I pushed the tab I went "hey, that's not what I wanted to vote", but it was too late.

Brian

[doug.goodman]

I work with touring bands, and it is very common (especially when playing a festival) for the contract to include a "radius clause" that says that band can not perform within a certain distance, for a certain time period (before and after) near the show that we are contracted to play.

Doug

[Jason]

Being strictly a consumer I say no.I want as many dealers as possible at every show I go to.

[kcohen]

Philly Show and Hunt Auctions, YOU'RE DEAD TO ME!

[Gradedcardman]

Absolutely ridiculous !! In todays economy, or yesterdays for that matter.

[skelly]

I know a lot of people in Northern New Jersey have really lost interest in attending the "Philly Show." Used to be a great show, not to be missed and myself and three or four buddies loved it. Went in September and we were like what are still coming for? Fewer dealers, and we don't really care about autographs. If your into the whole autograph thing, need stuff graded, or are looking to consign to an auction house, then you might want to make the trip. Going just to buy cards, its no longer the place to be ( at least in my opinion ).

[novakjr]

Well, when I had my band a while back, certain clubs/promoters would do the same thing...BUT, in that case, you were getting paid(or an opportunity for good exposure), so they were just covering their a$$es to make sure you're putting in a full effort to bring in as many people as possible...

However, when in comes to these card shows, aren't you paying them?

You pay them to not only put together the show, but to promote(thus the title of promoter) and make sure as many people are coming as possible, using the money you give them... I'd tell him to shove the clause up his a$$...He can either take your money without the clause, or go F himself...

[judsonhamlin]

I have been going to the Philly shows since the glorious days at the GW Motor Lodge, and I even was a multiple-year member of the EPSCC so I could get that extra hour on Fridays. I can safely say that my cash and I have gone to our last Hunt show. Oaks may not be perfect, but I find it be a better enviornment for my collecting "focus".

[Teamsets4u]

Voted earlier before the title was changed
Voted YES but should have been NO

[FrankWakefield]

I've heard before of women who approached relationships with a tacit requirement of such fidelity and loyalty. Let's not have a poll about the propriety of that.


I voted no, as many did.

[murcerfan]

not only should dealers be faithful to only one show, they should not be allowed to sell on e-bay or do any deals outside said show.

In fact when I become King, bidders that participate with any other auction houses or buy cards from anyone but me shall be banished into the wilderness forever.

now bow down to me peasant.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by murcerfan

not only should dealers be faithful to only one show, they should not be allowed to sell on e-bay or do any deals outside said show.

In fact when I become King, bidders that participate with any other auction houses or buy cards from anyone but me shall be banished into the wilderness forever.

now bow down to me peasant.

Now that's funny!

[murcerfan]

stop laughing or I'll ban you from my never ending mailing list of catalogs filled with garbage lots of modern cards and fake autographs...and you will soon wish it all would just end.....but it won't peasant....no,no,no....e-mail and ask...write a letter....we will send your grandchildren our spam long after you and your collection are long gone and stone cold dead.

now get back in line and pay your damn admission fee...what the hell you think this thing here is?....a hobby? fun? or something weird like that?

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Finally, what the Philly promoter is doing is probably an illegal conspiracy in restraint of trade, especially the market allocation aspect [i.e., demanding that the vendors agree not to work in the specific area in any other show]. I'd love to see him try to enforce that contract provision.

I agree with Exhibitman. It sounds a lot like restraint of trade to me.

[murcerfan]

Ironically Memory Lane may score some kind of strange credibility points from this action...somewhere I guess ?

But who knew an auction house could sustain itself off louisville slugger left-over bats forever?

[buymycards]

I wouldn't sign a contract that has that clause in it.

I am setting up at a show in Madison, WI on Sunday and at a different show in Madison on the following Sunday. There are no contracts and the people running the shows cross promote for each other. They are just happy to have their tables sold.

Rick

[effe]

Hey Rick, where's the show being held? I'll be up in Madison for the Wisconsin/Marquette bb game and staying overnight, so a show would be an added bonus.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by vic

We're Sorry! Memory Lane NOT attending Philly Show this weekend!

Very telling! Also Steve Hart at Baseball Card Exchange who is the largest vintage unopened dealer has not set up at the last few Philly shows. He used to have a large booth of vintage unopened packs and boxes just as you came in the door and I would always stop by to buy a pack or two. Now I think he just sends one of his guys but it now for just buying opportunities. Not sure if they even have a table. To be fair I do not think he is setting up at Oaks, but he should.

[Buythatcard]

Seems like the Philly show is dying. With the Casinos coming to the Radisson Hotel, I wouldn't be surprised if Radisson no longer rents out the space to an empty show.

If the Oaks show becomes the show of PA, let's hope they schedule more dates in the area.

[glynparson]

want to do shows again and set up at the Oaks.

[Jewish-collector]

What David (Hunt) and Marco (CSA) should do is to combine their shows into one large show and have that one large show two or three times a year.
If you can't beat em, join em.

[Lordstan]

This kind of reminds me of some of the Gloria Rothstein rules at her White Plains show. If you missed a show, you were out of her shows period, no matter what the reason. She got away with it because it was one of the best shows around beside the National, and she had a wait list of dealers looking to get in.
In today's economy and with shows dying even before the economy tanked, It is surprising a promoter would want to put in a rule like this.

[edhans]

Add me to the list of those who voted yes when they meant no. If the vote wasn't so one sided, I'd suggest taking it down. No need for that, though. The results speak for themselves. This ploy was tried in Western NY about 20 years ago. It didn't work here either.

[Rich Klein]

I'll post about the last time this occured in Philly about 30 years ago -- that is a doozy IIRC.

Rich

[buymycards]

Hi John,
The show will be at the Crown Plaza on East Washington from 10 until 2. (Closing early because of the Packers game at 3:15).

Sunday the 11th the show will be at the Labor Temple on South Park. 10 until 3. (Most dealers will probably clear out by 2 because of another 3:15 Green Bay game).

Hope to see you there!

Rick

[mordecaibrown]

Well - I decided to stop in at the Valley Forge show tonight (Friday) and see the situation after all the discussion and hopefully pick up a few T206s.

Overall, there are hardly any dealers set up (significantly less than any previous show!!!) and its not empty tables that dealers have not arrived at yet, its wide open floor space. There are only about 4-5 dealers there specializing in vintage cards.

Sadly, it looks like this show is coming to an end - its not worth the $8 admission price unless your going for autographs.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown

Sadly, it looks like this show is coming to an end - its not worth the $8 admission price unless your going for autographs.

Just checked the signers and there's a ton, so apparently they are moving the show to an autograph show
moreso then a card show. No wonder, since many of the people buying autographs will run out of money.
Ryan Howard is $199 for flats, $249 for bats & jerseys & inscriptions are an extra $99, so that's $298 to get a photo signed w/ your kids name, plus the price of the photo and the $8 admission for you & $8 for your kid...Ouch!