T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

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Posted By: Anonymous

thank you for pointing out their website. for a long time, i have been looking for a store that can fulfill all my horny goat weed and refurbished taser needs. this one-stop-shopping bonanza has saved me a lot of time and money.

they might have a better chance of selling the card if it were listed as "refurbished."

new to the board/happy to be here.

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Posted By: John

My hope was that the recent troubling rumors of racial issues that seem to plague PSA and the network 54 forum were just that, rumors. In my investigative report I uncovered that Joe Orlando built the PSA Empire on Black Exploitation films. A shocking discovery indeed!

And now in part 2 of my investigative report it seems this conspiracy goes even deeper. I had two undercover agents submit 2 T206 Chance cards to SGC. Notice the grades! Shocking!!!



I am really glad “TheCard” has brought this to our attention. I will continue to pursue this issue, and will not rest until it resolved. I have also turned out the lights as instructed, and I seem to be walking into a lot more furniture…

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Posted By: David Smith

Another problem I foresee is all the publicity this card is receiving. By it being in both an auction house and on eBay, it is getting an air of legitimacy to it, especially when it has "scientific analysis" with it.

Now, just think, a couple of people across the country see all of this and think their (fake) Wagner card is real and take the time and money to have their card evaluated by experts. When the analysis comes back as negative, ie the card is NOT vintage but a newer reprint, those people might also think the world is against them and wanting to rip them off. Thus starting another round on this comic Merry-Go-Round.

The real shame would be if someone out there has a box of T206 cards (ala the Indianapolis OJ find) with a real Honus Wagner in it. They see the auction and newspaper articles about this fake card and decide to not trust having their own card graded but instead to have the paper tested and in doing so, damage or destroy a real Wagner card. What a crime.

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Posted By: Rich W.

Russ, I literally fell off my chair laughing with your post. "Complete Sentence Man" needs to fly in and save this dolt now. I would recommend people bidding so as to give Jethro here some money to spend on some remedial English classes, but I remembered that anyone can still attend public 2nd grade for free. Billy Madison, watch out.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

http://www.hbo.com/realsports/stories/2006/episode.113.s2.html

HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel is actually planning to cover the "controversy" surrounding this card on August 15. Since the auction ends August 12 I guess they can interview the happy winner and proud former owners.

Toto, we are not in Kansas anymore . . .

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Posted By: leon

Isn't it amazing how far this farce is going?

edited to add that I just read the long winded BS on the Connelly website. This whole thing with all of the BS analysis is just one big, contrived scam....period.

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Posted By: fkw

I know its useless, but here are some photos....

Common 1980's reprint / Authentic T206 Wagner

$300K T206 Wagner (reprint) on eBay

Caption of an authentic T206 Wagner
Caption of a common T206 Wagner reprint from the 1980s
Caption of the T206 $300K (reprint) on eBay.

Notice the "P" and "G" in caption is slightly larger than the "ittsbur" on the authentic card, also the ink color of the caption is more of a grey color and not black like on the reprints. Also notice the distance between the "R" and "P" in "Wagner, Pittsburg" is far wider on the authentic card. Also notice the black line is missing from around the photo, and the "G" on in uniform is touching the border on the reprint.

It doesnt get any easier than that, a 5 year old can tell the difference if he knows where to look.......

Its an obvious reprint front with (maybe) an authentic back.

I guess we'll see it again next year, and the next and the next. This reprint wont go away.....

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Posted By: DD

I just read where Floyd Landis is going to endorse the T-206 as being authentic. I am now ready to bid.

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Posted By: Jason

But not quite!
I'll take 4 of those Wagners and a chocolate malt to go!

seriously, anyone who can write THAT long of a diatribe, with such stylistic quality and lack of edumacated verbiage, must truly be talenticated in the most detail-oriented manner...a misunderstood genius, if you will.

I mean, referring to the spell-checking function as a personified sidekick like that? can't you just picture this guy in a black mask, sitting down at his PC with a fan blowing his technicolor cape out into the room behind him in billowing waves, loudly snapping the edges of the fabric against his collection of lava lamps and paper-mache volcanoes, while he types furiously with both index fingers and yelling at his mother to stop throwing away his adult magazines?!
If this is the real guy, thank goodness he came out of the proverbial closet to show us the level of his intelligence, trustworthiness, education, and taste.

wait a minute!

SEAN, IS THAT YOU???

oh my goodness..ok, I'm going to go and finish laughing my ass off and wetting my pants now...haven't had this much fun since they killed off Independent George!

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Posted By: robfouch

I'm very surprised Real Sports is even bothering with this story. It's actually a very good show and does -- for the most part -- first-rate journalism.
I work at a large newspaper and was always taught that just because huge dollar figures are being thrown around -- i.e. in a big lawsuit -- that doesn't mean you pursue the story if the lawsuit is ridiculous on its face.

If every expert in the hobby declares this a fake, that really puts an end to the story. Unless it's a story focusing on how people get duped, or how to perpetrate a big scam. But from the show's description, that doesn't sound like the case.

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Posted By: Rob

With a reasonable opening bid, with such a clear explanation from "TheCard" about how there are no experts here, and with Frank Ward with his 18 so called "real" Honus Wagners is trying to make fools of us, I figured to get this card in a PSA holder and make $100,000.

Then I saw that the seller was a negro. Well, I don't buy my T206 Wagners from NEGROES!!!!
So have Bryant Gumbel call me and put me on his show!!! The HBO show can be "T206 Wagner would had sold if not for a racist card collector!"

On the other hand, if they will take the million dollar bill (which I obtained at the mall last week) as payment and give me back the rest in change, I may change my mind.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Will Bryant Gumbel categorically say the card is a fake, or will he wimp out by saying there is controversy surrounding the card and nobody knows for sure?

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Posted By: Joe D.

the type definitely looks like the reprints.

it also looks like it is missing the 'line frame' before the white border.

the line frame appears in the real t206s and does not in the reprint.... hmmmmm.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Here's the deal. The owners have been told that most serious collectors won't
purchase the card unless it is in a PSA, SGC or similar holder. They haven't been
able to find a buyer for several years because the card is not such a holder. The owners
also know that the card will sell easier and for more money if the card is
in one of these holders. As noted, GAI (a respectable grader) will grade the
card with the owners viewing. There is no legitimate reason why the owners haven't
had the card examined by one of these graders IF they believe the card to be original.
If they don't beleive the card to be original, that would be a legitimate reason
to not let a grader look at it.

Let's do some logic math.

T206 Wagner graded by PSA = (faster sale) + (more money) + (no legal liability).

T206 Wagner not graded by PSA or similar = (slower sale) + (less money) + (seller takes on more liability)

Now, why would the owner of a T206 Honus Wagner, especialy one who knows most collectors
won't buy the card unless it's in a reputable holder, pick the second equation. It
shouldn't take Issac Newton or Albert Eisnstein (both famous scientists) to figure out
that one. If you had every Nobel Prize Winner in science, every science department
chair at MIT, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge look at those equations, they would say
they would have their authentic t206 Honus Wagner graded by PSA before sale. I am confident
even the owners' hired experts would pick the first equation. Even if the paper examiner
felt his examination is worthwhile and added to the knowledge about the card he would
chose to have his original T206 Honus Wagner be grade as it means more money.

If on Star Trek, Dr. Spock told the evil overlord supergenius computer robot
that someone who beleives his Wagner is original and wants to maximize his
profits has chosen the second equation, the robot would say "Does ... Not ...
Compute! .... Does ... Not ...Compute!" until it's head exploded, saving fair
(and sexy) inhabitants of the planet Herloniturion next week's episode.

If you told the same to the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland, he would say,
"Makes perfect sense. The key to maximizing your profits, is to ensure it
sells for less.The key to selling things faster is to make things sells
slower. The key to lowering your liabiliy is to increase your liability.
As I said, it makes perfect sense."

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

It might be an interesting topic for the HBO show if a new T206 Wagner popped up and the collecting community was evenly and vociferously divided over its authenticity. But in this case NO ONE says it's real.

Doesn't Connelly wonder why Mastro doesn't want this card?

Does HBO find the owners' "experts" credible?

Why is SCD advertising this auction?

Ebay has terminated the listing of this identical card five times before. Why haven't they done so this time?

Where is Rod Serling when we need him?

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Posted By: ErlandStevens

Out of curiosity, of the big three grading companies, have all of them graded a Wagner? I've seen scans of PSA Wagner slabs, but no SGC or GIA. None of the top T206 sets in the SGC registry have a Wagner.

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Posted By: JimB

PSA, SGC, and GAI have all graded T206 Wagners. There were a coupld of SGC graded Wagners at the National.
JimB

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Posted By: Bob

I may not know Chupcabra from Horny Goat Weed but the card is obviously a fake. Race is not an issue (I will admit I had not heard or seen anyone use the term "Negro" since about 1975 until I read this thread), the issue is whether or not guys who (as pointed out above)spend way too much of their time (myself included) peering at and examining pieces of cardboard have the expertise to distinguish between an altered or reprinted card and the real thing. The answer is an easy yes.

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Posted By: John

Interesting point Joe, an easy way to tell a fake sometimes is to invert the color spectrum. Almost always the black becomes white and vice a versa. Notice the thin black line now outlines the picture in whiteish silver. The brownish ink used in the script almost always becomes gray in real T206s.

Here is the mystery card and 2 other lucky peoples genuine Wagner’s. I’m sure you guys know this stuff, but its boring waiting for conference calls and I like to play in Photoshop as if you didn’t already know.

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Posted By: DD

According to Bob Connelly's web site (http://www.bobconnelly.com), "Bob now serves nationally in the Appraisers Association of America, where he's been a member of its Board of Directors since 1995, and holds that Society's highest designation."

According to the Code of Ethics on their web site (http://www.appraisersassoc.org) Bob has either violated their rules when it comes to Objectivity, or every T-206 Wagner reprint should be deemed authentic. The wording as it appears on their web site is as follows:

Assumption of Responsibility
It is the responsibility of the individual appraiser to contract for appraisal work only within the areas of his or her professional competence and expertise. Every appraiser must sign and certify his or her appraisal. In the event that an appraiser discovers, after contracting for an appraisal, that he or she is not qualified to carry out the full appraisal, he or she must call upon, or recommend to the owner or custodian of the property, an appraiser who is qualified for that portion of the appraisal not within his or her area of expertise.

Objectivity
All items of property covered within an appraisal must be appraised objectively, independent of outside influences and without any other motive or purpose than stated in said appraisal. All items must be described accurately and all factors affecting their valuation must be stated clearly and concisely with the highest degree of accuracy.

Examination of Property
All items for appraisal must be examined personally by the appraiser, or be so noted.


He is either not qualified, in which case under the assumption of responsibilty he would have to find an expert in the area, or authenticity is not a factor in valuation. Although I have never previously heard of the Appraisers Association of America, I am sure that their reputation, and the insurance underwriters for the appraisals they write, would be severely compromised by Mr. Connelly's assertions of authenticity and appraisal.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

There can be only one final arbiter to this "controversy." Offer the card to "Mr. Mint." He would fly to Nepal with $1 million in cash if he thought this thing was real.

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Posted By: John

Erland here you go. Jim is correct.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I can see why these two guys are perpetuating this sham- at the very least they are getting their 15 minutes of fame- but for the life of me I can't see why Connelly Auctions wants to be a party in this. That one I just can't figure out. Getting back to Bryant Gumbel, he has a staff whose job is to research the card and report back to him. I can say with certainty that their search will lead them to network54. We are not a bunch of yokels working out of our basements (Wayne's World?) but a powerful force in the hobby. There's a good chance that some of what has been disseminated here will appear on the show. It will be worth watching to find out.

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Posted By: Larry

We are all being entertained at the expense of using our time for something more productive...I just wasted 20 minutes reading this long thread about nothing, something that a Seinfeld episode should have been about.

I cannot believe that HBO will actually do a story on this ridiculous fake card with no credibility except for a fake back mounted on a reprint.

Has the world really a place for this lunacy, I guess it does... here on Net 54, the place for controversial
topics about nothing... maybe Keith Olbermann and Bill O Reilly can settle their differences here too, Keith is well ahead on points and at least he knows about baseball cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- I believe the SGC and GAI Wagners are the same card.

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Posted By: John

Barry, you are correct sir. I have a hard enough time keeping track of all my Wagners much less everyone else's. You know the feeling. LOL

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Posted By: Andy

First let me say that these two con-artists know this card is fake. There is no way to convince me that they honestly believe that they are still holding a real T206.

Second, there are no scientific tests that can prove that a card is an authentic baseball card. The only way to prove it is to have experts in the field of vintage baseball cards examine the card and give their opinion.

These two clowns are avoiding the experts at all costs and attacking them with contempt, name calling and accusations of racism (which I believe to be almost as bad as being racist, but that's just me). Your bringing up race is a clear sign of your desperation in the eleventh hour. It is pathetic.

If someone has something they believe to be authentic, then they will go to experts in the field to get their opinions. I can assure these two losers that many members of this board are in fact experts in the field of vintage baseball cards. These are the people who can authenticate your card as a real or fake baseball card, not a paper examiner.

Ask any of your scientists to publicly state that your card is in fact a 1909 T206 Honus Wagner baseball card, the most coveted baseball card in the world, and they will tell you they can not do that. They can only tell you that the paper is old, or the type matches similar type in that time period. That does not constitute it's authenticity as a baseball card.

My name is Andy Huntoon. Thank you.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The thing about HBO is that they are familiar with with sports memorabilia fakes,
and have used the services of PSA/DNA, GAI and Richard Simon for autographs.
If there is a show on this card, HBO likely will have PSA, SGC and GAI all
exaimine the card. HBO wasn't born yesterday as far as fakes and forgeries go,
and can tell the difference from Donald Frangipani and Global Authentication.
I don't see how they wouldn't have a legitimate expert give opinion on the card.

There is a reasonable chance that HBO already believes the card is a fake, which
is why they are doing the story. As noted, they have don't exposes of fakes
and fakers in the past. There's no reason to believe this story won't be
different.

HBO will know the difference between Bill Mastro (who has called the card a
reprint) and someone who mispelled the colleges he went to on his resume.

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Posted By: robfouch

"In collaboration with Sports Illustrated, REAL SPORTS correspondent Bernard Goldberg examines the history of this tantalizing card and explores the current controversy. Is the new buyer really purchasing the holy grail of collectibles?"

I don't doubt that the HBO reporters will figure it out. I guess I'm just bothered by this blurb on the HBO site trumpeting the piece. It seems pretty cut and dry that it's NOT one of the holy grail cards, so in effect, that ends the story. I mean, this isn't even a good fake.
How it has gotten this far is beyond me.

Hopefully, the Real Sports story will go a different direction and explore the scammer angle, how common this sort of thing is, why eBay's allowing the auction to proceed, etc. Lots of ways this could be made into an interesting story. It's simply that the way the story's trumpeted on the HBO site doesn't seem that compelling to me.

"Is it real?"
"No."
End of story.

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Posted By: dennis

i will be very surprised if HBO comes out and says the card is an obvious fake. if indeed the story is about this wagner,look for the david vs. golaith type coverage,with the 2 owners front and center stage.

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Posted By: Bob

I'd like a show of hands: "Who believes Bryant Gumbel would not waste one second of time on this whole incident if the seller were not an African-American?"
That's the real race card being played here. If the seller were Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian, or Martian, my gut reaction is that Gumbel wouldn't touch it.

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Posted By: John

Tbob I see where you going with this but I dont get it? It doesn't add up?

Isn't Bryant Gumbel white???

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Posted By: Russ Bright

and I just cancelled HBO... I would want to see this, I might have to go rent a hotel room and have a party so everyone can watch this unfold on HBO. It'll be better than a Super Bowl party!

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Posted By: DJ

Race I believe has nothing at all to do with this. How many african-americans own Honus Wagners? Anyone know?

All those clowns from Real Sports busted by the Feds for being "ignorant authenticators" were all caucasians.

They have to know about this card in advance...but I'm also utterly shocked that they would announce this story before the ending has been written. After all, what if eBay pulls this? Will the two men who own the card comment about the card? Will Joe be interviewed? Will Bill? Heck, will Monsieur Mint? Why wasn't Pro called on this or the 'Gradeyourownfreaking" card company? How about our own Leon Luckey all decked out in VBC Forum gear chatting away? Will there be a figure in the shadow who refuses to reveal himself?

I gave two big thumbs up for their work with the witch doctors who call themselves authenticators and I'm hoping that they equally please me later on this month. There will surely be three figures in thread additions two seconds after it airs.

Oh, Wonka...awesome as usual! You are a true "artiste" with your rich devotion to Joe. O and Mr. Mint art work! Keep up the good work!

DJ

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Posted By: William Heitman

I was shocked to see in Joe's posting that Capital company chose to hi-jack the name I gave to T206 on the cover of my 1980 book--T206 The Monster. Now on point. I have been paid some pretty good money and been flown to far away places to authenticate a "Wagner." One such trip yielded a Wagner, Boston AL! I even spotted a fake at a dealer's table at a show, which he immediately took off his table and returned to the person he bought it from who gladly accepted it back "only after I talk to Heitman." Of the 20 to 25 that I have been asked to authenticate, only one was real. It is impossible to authenticate a Wagner without seeing it in person and examining it. But I will say that a picture can reveal a fake. I have been shown pictures of what purported to be a Wagner along with an offer to fly me somewhere to examine the card. Many times I have told the owner of a reprint that he need not bother to pay me to be told that his card is not an original. Having said this, let me add that the pictures I've seen of this card reveal just what it really is.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Not sure whether we helped their cause or not, but, lemme ask this:

If you cheated on a test, would you be proud of your results? Likewise, if you took a medical test for a certain condition, would you want the true results or not?

Knock on wood, haven't been there, but, if one was, do you want the truth or do you want to live a lie?

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Posted By: jP

i think i kind of agree with T.Bob

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Posted By: MW

Not sure if it has been posted already but the Wagner auction has been removed by eBay.

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Posted By: sagard

When is the HBO scheduled to air?

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Posted By: DJ

I believe it was August 15th, but if you are like me, you have "several" HBO's and they basically play the same shows everyday from there on in. They may also have it on the "HBO On Demand" feature so you can watch it anytime you want.

DJ

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Posted By: Frank

Hint: Binghamton, NY


Also, Billy Martin died here in a drunk driving accident

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Posted By: Dave Simon

You all have to watch the realsports with Bryant Gumball -- it is hilarious!!!

The 'auction' they had for the card was a joke.

Even Mr. Magoo from the above posts said he thought it was fake after touching it.