1921 E121 American Caramel Series of 80 - Waite Hoyt

[h2oya311]

I was just looking at the PSA and SGC population reports for the 1921 E121 American Caramel Series of 80 set and noticed that there are very few Waite Hoyt cards graded relative to most of the other cards in the set, particularly HOFers. 2 total by PSA and 3 total by SGC.

Are there certain players or teams that are rarer than others? Or is it simply an anomaly?

I know that two graded Hoyt's have sold in the past few months, but I don't recall ever seeing another offered for sale. Is someone hoarding them all and storing them un-plasticized?

I owned one (raw) from 2003 to 2011 but honestly haven't seen all that many ungraded ones for sale either. What gives?

[VoodooChild]

Hey Derek. The E121-80 is a set I decided to collect. I've only been at it for a year or so and am by no means an expert. A board member reached out to me and provided me with a bunch of information. Speculation is that there was a grouping of Yankee and Giants cards that were released in limited number during the World Series. The Hoyte is one of those cards. I think the only other HOFers in that rare group are Frank Frisch, Miller Huggins, and Frank (not the more common J. Franklin version) Baker. Also, those cards only exist with the rarer Type 2 and Type 3 backs.

I'm sure the true E121-80 experts (hey Rhett and Kevin) will chime in and provide better info for you.

[kmac32]

I bought one of the E121-80 Hoyt cards a couple of months age for around $350.00 got a good deal but haven't seen any since.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Hey, Derek:

I owned one at one time too, not sure about low pop report numbers, I'm going with the "it's an anomaly" explanation...........

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by VoodooChild

Hey Derek. The E121-80 is a set I decided to collect. I've only been at it for a year or so and am by no means an expert. A board member reached out to me and provided me with a bunch of information. Speculation is that there was a grouping of Yankee and Giants cards that were released in limited number during the World Series. The Hoyte is one of those cards. I think the only other HOFers in that rare group are Frank Frisch, Miller Huggins, and Frank (not the more common J. Franklin version) Baker. Also, those cards only exist with the rarer Type 2 and Type 3 backs.

I'm sure the true E121-80 experts (hey Rhett and Kevin) will chime in and provide better info for you.

The information provided by Jason is accurate. The toughest HOFers in the E121 Series of 80 set are the ones that correspond to the late addition New York Yankee and Giants players made exclusively at the end of the production run (before starting the E121 Series of 120 from the following season).

The only HOFers that are part of that group (which will only be found with the rarer Type 2 and Type 3 backs) are as follows...

-Waite Hoyt
-Frankie Frisch
-Miller Huggins
-George Ruth (not Babe)
-Frank Baker (not J. Franklin)

These cards are among the very tough cards from that series and usually command quite a hefty premium, probably more-so in the future as the info becomes more "common knowledge". It used to be very tough to convince people of these rarities before but it is becoming more and more established.

Of those HOFers listed above the toughest of the group is probably the Frank Baker followed closely by Frank Frisch (which is relevant to you HOF Rookie collectors)

[h2oya311]

Thanks for the input guys. I knew he was tough, but didn't know exactly why. My wife has unbelievable "women's intuition". Glad to see my baseball card intuition is pretty decent too...

Rhett - was this series of Giants/Yankees issued at around the same time as the Koester's Bread cards? And why were only certain cards added to the E121-80 set and not others (ala Ross Youngs, etc.)? Popularity? Performance in the '21 season?

It sounds like the series of 80 turned out to be the series of 135+ (excluding back variations). Is it obvious what the original intended 80 cards were and then figure out what the late corrections/ additions were? I assume you've done that somewhere along the line.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Rhett - was this series of Giants/Yankees issued at around the same time as the Koester's Bread cards? And why were only certain cards added to the E121-80 set and not others (ala Ross Youngs, etc.)? Popularity? Performance in the '21 season?

It sounds like the series of 80 turned out to be the series of 135+ (excluding back variations). Is it obvious what the original intended 80 cards were and then figure out what the late corrections/ additions were? I assume you've done that somewhere along the line.

Yes, the late series E121 series of 80 cards were printed at roughly the same time as the Koester's Bread cards but not as many subjects were included for whatever reason (no Ross Youngs or Jesse Burkett in the E121 set... at least not yet). Also note that the Gassler's Bread set was made at the same time and at least at this point they share a checklist with the E121 Series of 80 set, so in theory those listed in my first post will be in the Gassler's set as well (The Gassler's set should probably be added to the HOF Rookie Card list as well-- no other ad back has been found with those subjects.)

If another Series of 80 new subject is to be found at this point (which is entirely possible) one of the most likely subjects would be Ross Young (with position as R.F.) so there is still achance that that may one day come to light.

The Series of 80 was a sort of "living set" not unlike the T206 set. They were not seemingly bound by the number of subjects listed on back and would simply update and change players, teams, etc. as they went along. It is entirely possible that at least one or more of the print runs individually may have actually consisted of 80 different subjects.

[Brian Van Horn]

.

[ValKehl]

Rhett, as many are aware (because I mention this as often as I dare), I am working on a master set of Sam Rice's cards. The E121-80s I currently have of Rice are:
- Type 1, back reads top to bottom.
- Type 1, back reads bottom to top.
- Type 2, back reads top to bottom.

Do you know if Sam Rice cards exist or should exist with any of the other back variations? Thanks in advance for your input.

[h2oya311]

=Brian Van Horn;2219218].

Peter - nice way to bump an eight year old thread!!

I found an early Hoyt Type 1 Press Photo that completely filled the hole in my HOF rookie collection…only because it features Hoyt at the ridiculously young age of 15 (in 1915) after being signed by John McGraw of the Giants. I have to imagine that this is the earliest age anyone has ever signed a professional contract. And this image might be the earliest image of any player in a professional uniform ever (excluding bat-boys).