S74 Silk Listed on EBAY SGC graded

[rsst206]

Hi Network Family,
I rarely post but thought i needed to point out this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-S74-Sil...IAAOSww5hZN1l3
If you are silk collector like I am. There is no need to purchase a graded silk. If buying from the web or EBAY you just need a good set of eyes. But how the grading coming could grade this a 5 with half the silk missing is beyond me.
To actually pay and have it graded is beyond me. Just a little rant from a guy who loves silks but can't believe how bad the grading companies are on silks. If you are collecting colored ones just make sure the factory number is on the top of the silk and brand is on the bottom.

best regards
Ron

[BobC]

Originally Posted by rsst206

Hi Network Family,
I rarely post but thought i needed to point out this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-S74-Sil...IAAOSww5hZN1l3
If you are silk collector like I am. There is no need to purchase a graded silk. If buying from the web or EBAY you just need a good set of eyes. But how the grading coming could grade this a 5 with half the silk missing is beyond me.
To actually pay and have it graded is beyond me. Just a little rant from a guy who loves silks but can't believe how bad the grading companies are on silks. If you are collecting colored ones just make sure the factory number is on the top of the silk and brand is on the bottom.

best regards
Ron

Couldn't agree more. Not sure if that is why PSA doesn't even try to grade them and basically leaves it to SGC and Beckett (does Beckett even still grade them?). They certainly don't/shouldn't follow the same grading standards for silks as they do for regular cards, especially since they are made of a satin like material and not cardboard. And what about the fact that all the white version silks with advertising backs still attached are downgraded because they have a fold in them. They were folded over and packaged that way so they virtually all have a crease/fold in them. And then the colored version silks that get downgraded because they have creases/folds in them.....ever hear of an iron. They're material for God's sake, you can just iron out the creases if you want. Or would that be considered as an unacceptable alteration by some collectors?

And have you ever seen anyone even try to produce a counterfeit silk? Not even sure it is possible, and certainly not worth the trouble based on the relatively low value afforded to silks still. So you don't even need the grading to assure authenticity. Again, couldn't agree more.

BobC

[drcy]

Originally Posted by BobC

And have you ever seen anyone even try to produce a counterfeit silk? Not even sure it is possible, and certainly not worth the trouble based on the relatively low value afforded to silks still. So you don't even need the grading to assure authenticity. Again, couldn't agree more.

BobC

Good chance you'll wreck your printer running cloth through it

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rsst206

Hi Network Family,
I rarely post but thought i needed to point out this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-S74-Sil...IAAOSww5hZN1l3
...If you are collecting colored ones just make sure the factory number is on the top of the silk and brand is on the bottom.

best regards
Ron

well, sort of

[BobC]

Leon,

Those are nice, definitely miscuts you don't see too often.

[rsst206]

Nice Leon,
Yes you don't see to many with both factory and brand on the same side.

[BobC]

Here's a slightly different silk I wouldn't bother getting graded either. It would be interesting to see what grade SGC would give this one though......or what type of holder they could put it in!

[ValKehl]

Perhaps Leon's silks are counterfeits.

[edhans]

[QUOTEIf you are silk collector like I am. There is no need to purchase a graded silk. If buying from the web or EBAY you just need a good set of eyes. But how the grading coming could grade this a 5 with half the silk missing is beyond me.
To actually pay and have it graded is beyond me. Just a little rant from a guy who loves silks but can't believe how bad the grading companies are on silks. If you are collecting colored ones just make sure the factory number is on the top of the silk and brand is on the bottom.
[/QUOTE]

+1

Always loved the S74s, especially the colored ones. Vastly undervalued and underappreciated, in my opinion.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Perhaps Leon's silks are counterfeits.

At first I thought you said were they "counterfelts" and thought that was pretty good. But then I looked and it was my old eyes playing games again. I kind of like "counterfelts", although I guess "countersilks" would be more accurate. So you are saying you can tell I stamped those myself, are ya? . I doubt it. If I did it something would have gotten messed up. I would have put them on the back or something.
I have only seen these 2 misprints for S74 that I recall (no doubt many others exist) and they are leftovers from Collection 1. No one wanted them when they were being sold. I like them so they stayed.

[nolemmings]

Ron,

I actually like the fact that these are graded because the grading is so awful. I ignore it completely and let silks like the one you showed be bought by the slab collectors. It works the other way as well--they often undergrade nice examples. I even thought about contacting a seller and asking if he would bust a silk out of its Beckett tomb/fortress for me if I bought it (I've slowly learned to avoid unnecessary injury).

Because these silks are really not subject to wear or accidental damage they are better suited to stay in their natural state, imo, and look nicer that way. BTW, the same grading problems are found with Px7 discs, which I collect a little-- PSA is often clueless and is woefully inconsistent on these as well (Colgan's too, to a lesser extent).

[Jobu]

I only have one S74 and considered getting it graded but decided not to bother (I think). Can someone explain the general things to look for that make an S74 in good condition? Between the presence/absence of the back, the condition of the back if it is there, staining, fraying, missing threads, etc it seems like there is a lot going on with these.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I only have one S74 and considered getting it graded but decided not to bother (I think). Can someone explain the general things to look for that make an S74 in good condition? Between the presence/absence of the back, the condition of the back if it is there, staining, fraying, missing threads, etc it seems like there is a lot going on with these.

You kind of hit all the major buttons in your description. There are the two types of silks, the S74-1 white version that came with advertising backs attached, like your Marquard, and the S74-2 colored silks that didn't have any paper backing and instead showed the cigarette brand and factory number at the top and bottom on the front of the silks. Sort of like Leon's except those are miscut and show the brand and factory both on the bottom.

For the S74-1 silks you would prefer to have the backing attached, and that it be free of stains, dings and creases, other than the normal crease across the middle as they were all originally folded when put into cigarette packs back in the day. You would also look for the back advertising to be properly centered. Since the silks were printed in a single strip, and not on a sheet like most cards at that time, you don't normally have to worry about the paper backings being off-center from side-to-side, just top to bottom. Then you want the material on the front to be complete as well with as little fraying, if any, as possible.

Your Marquard silk easily shows there is some missing material at both the top and the bottom of the silk. On the colored version silks like the ones Leon posted, you want to be able to see the factory and cigarette brand information at both the top and the bottom of the silk with as little fraying as possible also. The ideal of course would be that there is no fraying at all. Leon's posted silks obviously show considerable fraying along with being severely miscut to where the facory and cigarette brand end up together on the silk. This type of miscut silk is akin to a miscut T206 card where you see the player name at the top of the card.

Also, just for the colored silks, there was some type of heat element or such that was supposedly applied when they were being cut. You can see when you have a really nice S74-2 silk that at the very top and bottom of the silk there is a strip of the material that is a little glossier from the reaction to the heat or whatever it was that was used to act as a type of seal to stop the material from fraying.

And on the front of both the white and colored version silks, you 'd like to see the image is clearly printed and centered well. Even though the silks were printed in single strips, apparently there was some sideways "play" during the actual printing process on the front of the silks, for both versions. And of course you'd like for there to not be any stains or marks on the front of either version of the silks.

Unlike the ad-backed white version silks that were folded when put into the cigarette packs, and therefore creased across the middle, the colored version silks are all just satin material and can easily have any creases ironed out. I never could understand why someone would send a colored version silk in to be graded and not at least iron out the creases. Not even sure how the grading company views and treats the creases but, would guess they deduct something for them.

In the following examples, the white version Old Mill backed silk of Hemphill shows a really nice back that is pretty well centered and, with the exception of the normal crease running across the middle, shows really nice corners and no other marks, dings or additional creases. The front of the Hemphill silk shows a perfectly centered image with some minor fraying/material loss at the top, and some nominal wear on the bottom. The spots on the image are from the scanner and not on the silk. You can also see the slight discoloration of the material across the middle on the front of the silk, which indicates where it was folded. You can't really tell on the back scan where it was folded since it did not do any excessive damage or wear to the paper backing.

The next example is of two different colored version silks. You'll notice on both the Daubert and Kling silks you can see the complete factory and cigarette brand descriptions at the top and bottom. The Daubert silk though still has a little fraying at the top and the bottom and though the threads running vertically in the silk are all there, probably 2 or 3 threads running horizontally across the bottom of the silk have been lost, while maybe 1 or 2 horizontally across the top are also missing. On the Kling silk there looks to be maybe a couple threads running horizontally across the top that are missing but, the bottom looks like it is all there with maybe a single horizontal thread starting to come apart though. What you also want to notice it that there appears to be a slightly different coloration to the material on both silks that runs across the very top and bottom of each. This is the heat treatment or whatever it was that occurred when these silks were being cut that was to stop the fraying. You want to see to see this on both the top and bottom edges of a colored version silks. The bottom edge of the Kling silk is how you want to see these, with virtually no fraying whatsoever. In this regard, the Kling silk is in a little better condition than the Daubert silk. Howvere, you'll also notice that the Daubert silk is a little more well centered then the Kling silk, so in that aspect the Daubert silk is slightly better.

I don't want to speak for all silk collectors but, these are the factors and things I look for and at to determine what condition a silk is in.

BobC

[rsst206]

Hi Bryan,
Nice pick up I had been following the card for months. But missed it when price was lowered. Very tough REDSUN HOFer. With some experts saying they were folded into the pack. You will find 99% of them with a crease. There are a few I have that don't have creases but very few. Out of the 350 different I have maybe 5 that don't have the crease in them. I too am with Todd on buying the graded ones. They are so far off that you can actually pick them up at a decent price. As you mentioned there is a lot going on with silks on condition.

br,
Ron

[BobC]

Originally Posted by rsst206

Hi Bryan,
Nice pick up I had been following the card for months. But missed it when price was lowered. Very tough REDSUN HOFer. With some experts saying they were folded into the pack. You will find 99% of them with a crease. There are a few I have that don't have creases but very few. Out of the 350 different I have maybe 5 that don't have the crease in them. I too am with Todd on buying the graded ones. They are so far off that you can actually pick them up at a decent price. As you mentioned there is a lot going on with silks on condition.

br,
Ron

Ron is right, there are a very small few ad-backed silks that appear to have not been folded for whatever reason. I have a couple myself. it might be a very small number were included in something other than regular cigarette packs where they did not have to be folded to fit them in.

And your silk is an awfully nice pick up. Any Red Sun backed silks are tough to find for any player, let alone a HOFer. Great silk.

BobC

[Jobu]

Wow Bob and Ron - thank you for all of that info!

It seems that the horizontal threads were woven together at an angle given the miscut appearance of the Marquard silk - though others look like they are perpendicular to the sides so maybe the construction was variable?

Thanks for the compliments on the Marquard as well. I am trying to get a HOFer (where possible) from all cards - or in this case "cards" - that were/could have been issued in New Orleans. Given what you are telling me, and what I read before my purchase, I feel pretty lucky to have found such a nice one for my collection.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Wow Bob and Ron - thank you for all of that info!

It seems that the horizontal threads were woven together at an angle given the miscut appearance of the Marquard silk - though others look like they are perpendicular to the sides so maybe the construction was variable?

Thanks for the compliments on the Marquard as well. I am trying to get a HOFer (where possible) from all cards - or in this case "cards" - that were/could have been issued in New Orleans. Given what you are telling me, and what I read before my purchase, I feel pretty lucky to have found such a nice one for my collection.

Yes, the horizontal threads always seem to be at a slight angle and not entirely perpendicular to the top and bottom edges. It does seem to vary though and there are some silks with virtually no horizontal angle, and others that are much greater. It probably has to do with how the satin material was originally woven and how it gets stretched and pulled when going through the printing process. If there wasn't any fraying on a particular silk, you probably don't even realize those horizontal threads are at an angle then.