What's the real deal with these Cuban cards?

[Scocs]

There are four of these supposed 1911-1915 Romeo Y Julieta baseball cards on Ebay now, but several voices have already come out against this seller and these cards as being fake on his Ebay listing itself.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CUBAN-CIGAR-...item2a38bf0ac0

Can anyone fill us in on the backstory here?

[Exhibitman]

I can add some info on Romeo y Julieta ["RyJ"]. The company is known for a pair of mid-1920s boxing issues as well as some nonsports movie cards. The front format of the cards on eBay roughly matches with a rare boxing issue:



Here is the principal boxing issue:





The cards are real photo, so there should be signs of silvering and very difficult to duplicate photographic age on them. Backs are found with black or [very rare] brown printing. There are tone variations among the cards with some sepia and some grayer. Also, there is a pretty good variance in size.

I have no idea who the seller is, so no opinion there. Is there another thread on these?

In terms of potential for discoveries, I do a lot of research on Latin American boxing cards and new issues surface seemingly every year. Last year two Cuban tobacco boxing issues popped up. New cards also surface periodically from established sets, most of which cannot be definitively checklisted.

There are two or three guys here I can think of on this board who have even more experience than me or anyone else in the world handling RyJ cards. Ryan Christoff is one of them. The others may not be 'out' so I won't mention names, but certainly any of them could examine these cards and give a pretty solid opinion on whether they are consistent with the genuine RyJ issues.

[ernestohur68]

Hello, I am the seller of the Romeo & Julieta card in Ebay. About the authenticity of them. I know nothing about baseball cards. I never saw Nacionales as somebody named Manni told me. But I contacted the biggest collector in the island to revised the cards inmediatly I bough them. Now I returned to his house and tell him what some people are saying about the cards. He confirmed again that the cards are original. I show in this post know some other cards in his collection, including other two issues of R&J cards that he found about 15 years ago. He told me that Ryan saw those cards in his house about 5 years ago and he was very surprised. He told me that anybody who has doubt about who is him can ask RYAN, can ask to Cesar Lopez, the owner of CUBANBALL. All of them know that he has the biggest collection of Cuban baseball cards, that he is working in the book about Cuban baseball cards. I show pictures of him with some of even more rarest cards of his collection. Rolando is a very serious people, he told me that he was who discovered the fakes in a lot of Cuban baseball cards, he was the source for many years to all the American who came to Cuba to buy this kind of item. I show 1 photo of him with Monte Irving and this is a good history to you: he asked Monte "Which is your rookie card?. Irving respond: "it is the Topps" and Rolando show him the album that Monte is seen in the photo with the Cuban EL INDIO card that was issued before TOPPS card. You can see in the photos others very rare cards CIGARS EL JUNTO, J.L. PIEDRA. DIHIGO CAMPO ALEGRE, LA MALLORQUINA (POP LLOYD), some PUNCH, GENER (ADOLFO LUQUE). NOW YOU HAVE INFORMATION TO OPEN MORE POST ABOUT OTHER RARE CUBAN BASEBALL CARD. NOW EVERYBODY WILL KNOW that the person who know more about Cuban baseball cards is not in UNITED STATES. HIS NAME IS ROLANDO SANCHEZ and he live in CUBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[Brian Van Horn]

Love the album.

[ernestohur68]

One more time. I am not an expert. But Rolando is an expert. I just buy and sell Cuban items. I don't made fakes. I found the cards together with other cards. If you want pictures of the album where the cards were found I can add them to the forum.

[packs]

Just a quick question. You said in your post you went to his house to ask him again about the cards after questions arose. But on eBay it says that your location is Spain. You said the gentleman lives in Cuba. Just wondering about the disparity between the location of the cards, your location, and the man in Cuba.

[ElCabron]

I'll post my opinion about these shortly, but are you sure Rolando is okay with you posting pictures of him on the internet? As you know, he lives in CUBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA and has always been more discreet than that.

-Ryan

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

I'll post my opinion about these shortly, but are you sure Rolando is okay with you posting pictures of him on the internet? As you know, he lives in CUBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA and has always been more discreet than that.

-Ryan

I agree. Paraphrasing is one thing but posting quotes and pictures from a personal message is a bit out of bounds. There's a reason why people are reluctant to share hobby information.

[ernestohur68]

Rolando know what i am doing. I am in spain but my husband and my partner is in cuba. I wrote for them and for me. Rolando gave me permission to talk about him. You can call him. You know he is discret person, you know he is serius and you, ryan know that cards are originals. Don't try to occult to the peopleo your first source in cuba. Do you think you are cabron? Yes you are

[ernestohur68]

HE WANT TO KNOW PEOPLE IN UNITED STATE KNOW THAT HE EXIST. I ASK HIM FOR HELP BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY (NOT RYAN OR ANY OTHER) THAT CAN TELL IF THE CARDS ARE ORIGINAL. OTHER PERSON WHO WROTE ME TO CONFIRMED THAN THE CARD ARE ORIGNAL IS LUIS MUÑOZ. I am sure that after Rolando he is the other who now more about Cuban baseball cards. he live in United States and I collectors know who he is. Other who know who Rolando is is CESAR LOPEZ, the owner of the site cubanball. Rolando gave me persimission to tell that he was the source for some cards in that site. You can see in the site who they gave thanks to ROLANDO SANCHEZ

[ernestohur68]

Tomorrow at 3.00 o clock rolando will be here in the post.ryan or any other that think he don't want to be public or justwant to talk with him alive, he will be here at that time. He will go to my husband house in habana, and he will be with him in the computer. Ryan, let me know now, what will you say?

[ernestohur68]

I just talk with rolando by phone. He said that ryan is a very prestigius expert and that he is sure from now than ryan will say that cards are originals. He say that ryan know the cards are originals , that he can't put in game his reputation telling than cards are not originals. Anyway tomorrow at 3.00 o clock, rolando will be in the forum to peopleo who think that i am using him and the he don't want to be public, as ryan said

[T206DK]

I love old Cuban cards. this story has me confused though.

[sebie43]

Originally Posted by T206DK

I love old Cuban cards. this story has me confused though.

+1

[Section103]

Can PSA or SGC determine they are original? That would put an awful lot of pointless discussion to rest.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

I just talk with rolando by phone. He said that ryan is a very prestigius expert and that he is sure from now than ryan will say that cards are originals. He say that ryan know the cards are originals , that he can't put in game his reputation telling than cards are not originals. Anyway tomorrow at 3.00 o clock, rolando will be in the forum to peopleo who think that i am using him and the he don't want to be public, as ryan said

3:00 what time zone?

[ernestohur68]

Some people travel to Cuba, get Cuban baseball cards in cheap prices, they try to control the market, same people wrote directly to sellers in ebay to try to buy good items. Those people say some cards are fakes to control the market. Same people say his opinion one day before an auction close because they know cards are good and they want to buy them. But the time of this kind of people is near to the end. One of this people is MANNY who wrote me in Ebay, he used to go to Cuba to buy cards. I don't want to mention more names. Just think: why don't write his opinion if he know tha the cards are goods. Rolando will be ready tomorrow to talk with Ryan ore any other tomorrow. NOBODY CAN CONTROL THE MARKET, THIS IS A FREE WORLD.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Section103

Can PSA or SGC determine they are original? That would put an awful lot of pointless discussion to rest.

No disrespect to the TPG's but these guys know more than they do about Cuban cards.

[ernestohur68]

can I send the cards to PSA from Spain?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

NOBODY CAN CONTROL THE MARKET, THIS IS A FREE WORLD.

Cuba isn't free.

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Leon

No disrespect to the TPG's but these guys know more than they do about Cuban cards.

Yeah, I was afraid of that. I put all of my trust in Ryan C. It also has to be a precarious position to judge a card not in hand.

[ElCabron]

How about we let Rolando speak for himself? If he wants people to know who he is, he doesn't need anyone else to do it for him, but I can say a few words to help introduce him. For anyone who doesn't know, Rolando Sanchez is the world's leading authority on Cuban baseball cards. No one has had more Cuban baseball cards pass through their hands than Rolando, including myself. I've done a lot of business with Rolando in the past and would not have the collection I have today were it not for him. I've been to his house several times and seen some of the cards in person that are posted in those pictures above. I trust his opinion, and if Rolando says the cards are real, that is good enough for me. If ROLANDO says it. Not someone saying Rolando says it.

However, I have some very specific doubts about them that perhaps Rolando can address. There are some red flags here. My doubts are more about the 4 Almendares cards than the amateur cards, but I do have some doubt on the whole group. It's possible they're real, though. Without seeing them in person, it is much harder for me to tell. It sounds like more will be revealed tomorrow at 3:00 in some time zone.

-Ryan

[ernestohur68]

Not freedom is good to peopleo who use and abuse of the cubans buying cards in 20 and selling them in 2000

[ernestohur68]

We will be wainting for you. Can we use a web cam in this site?

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

Not freedom is good to peopleo who use and abuse of the cubans buying cards in 20 and selling them in 2000

So you bought these for $20?

[ernestohur68]

Respond, that will be the proof that it will be rolando himself and not me taling by him. Ana

[ElCabron]

By the way, you could also have Rolando send me an email if he'd rather communicate that way.

-Ryan

[ernestohur68]

Ryan i am cuban, not american like you and i paid good half of the price that i put in auction

[ernestohur68]

If you want he write you tomorrow early and my husband will be for him in the morning to he write you and in the afternoon if you want him in the forum. Not problem for it. Please confirm it.

[ernestohur68]

About your nickname, you know what it means?. This is not a good world in spanish, for cuban is not good to be a cabron. Cabron is the people who try to take adventages of the others. Not good people. I think you should change it

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

About your nickname, you know what it means?. This is not a good world in spanish, for cuban is not good to be a cabron. Cabron is the people who try to take adventages of the others. Not good people. I think you should change it

I always thought it meant assh*le?

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

About your nickname, you know what it means?. This is not a good world in spanish, for cuban is not good to be a cabron. Cabron is the people who try to take adventages of the others. Not good people. I think you should change it

Is there a translation for "seller of fake cards"?

And for the record, I've never sold anything for $2,000 that I bought for $20. The days of people paying pennies on the dollar for Cuban cards in Cuba were before I ever went there. I was the one paying the $2,000.

-Ryan

[ernestohur68]

I know you don't pay cheap price i am talking of others. You came in the times of 12 000 for a billiken album

[ernestohur68]

And at 3.00 pm east time in the forum

[ernestohur68]

But it is not good price for united states. But it is good for the cubans, i know , ryan, you paid top price in cuba.

[ElCabron]

I look forward to hearing from Rolando. He would be a great asset to Net54 if he able to post every now and then. I know that might be difficult and not very practical. Or safe. Again, he can contact me privately if he'd prefer. I'm happy to post anything he'd like me to. I live in COLORADOOOOOOOOO, so I'll be snowboarding tomorrow morning/afternoon, but I'll respond here on the forum as soon as I get the chance.

Thanks,

-Ryan

[ernestohur68]

HE SAID THAT HE WILL WRITE CESAR, HE LOOSED YOUR E MAIL. I THINK I HAVE YOUR E MAIL FROM YOUR SITE. HE SAID I TOLD YOU THAT THE PERSON FROM WHO HE WROTE YOUR IN THE PAST IN IN UNITED STATES. THAT HIS ENGLISH IS NOT GOOD. IF YOU CAN CALL CESAR AND TOLD HIM THAT CALL ROLANDO, THIS IS THE PHONE NUMBER 536427533, AS THEY CAN TALK IN SPANISH, IS MORE EASY TO THEM. THANKS VERY MUCH. RYAN, I AM VERY SORRY FOR MY POSITION WITH YOU. I READ ROLANDO WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT HIM IN THE FORUM AND HE IS VERY HAPPY. REGARDS
ANA and ERNESTO

[ernestohur68]

If other peopleo have questions about cuban baseball cards that they want i translate to rolando, i will help with that and put his answers in the forum. My husband live in cuba and can talk with him every day.

[ernestohur68]

LET ME KNOW IF YOU PREFER OTHER TIME TOMOROW AND I will change the date with him.

[ElCabron]

I'm not calling Cesar. Rolando can email me through Leonardo, or call Luis Munoz, who is a good friend of mine.

-Ryan

[CW]

I don't know why, but I am highly entertained by this thread.

[Exhibitman]

Yeah, it's kind of like one of those I Love Lucy episodes where they go to Cuba to meet Ricky's wacky family...

Plus, let's face it, we all have fantasies as collectors of finding something vintage, rare and unknown. It is part of what makes this fun.

[ernestohur68]

Ryan, my husband just called Rolando in Cuba to tell him that you want you write Luis Munos, it is 9.00 a.m in Cuba. He said that he wrote you yesterday an e mail to you and Cesar Lopez. He said that as a proof that is he, he sent you an e mail from you from 2002. He said that he wrot you to an e mail tha is something like "allvacation" or other thing like that.
Ana

[ernestohur68]

Hello, Ryan, Rolando IS here, give me your phone to hi call you or you can him to 5352786403. I am waiting for the Luis number

[ernestohur68]

Rolando is here, you can called him. he wrote you yesterday. Give us your e mail or your phone.

[Exhibitman]

OK. I will start off since Ryan is snowboarding.

What can Rolando tell me about the following card sets?

Romeo y Julieta: Below are pictures of the typical [brown borders] card, a white borders card, and a card with a graphic image of ring ropes with the fighter. Any idea why these were made differently?





Can he give me any information on this card? It is about the size of a postcard:



How about this card? Is it a genuine Cuban issue?

[ElCabron]

I'm here. I should be in the mountains enjoying a powder day, but I am here instead. My number is (303)829-1995. My email is my first name at cubanbaseballcards.com. But I thought Rolando was going to post here on the forum.

-Ryan

[Exhibitman]

These two cards showed up about 2 years ago. Anything he can tell me about this set?

[ernestohur68]

HELLO ANYBODY CAN CALL RYAN. Rolando is waiting here for him.

[ElCabron]

Adam,

Would you mind if we deal with the issue of these Romeo y Julieta cards first and then get answers to your boxing cards? I'm sure Rolando can answer your questions. I just don't want to get too far off topic.

-Ryan