Pirate back Chinese card

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Posted By: Geno

I was roaming the streets today while my wife was doing some shopping and ended up in my favorite tobacco card shop. I pick up a grab bag every once in awhile and the one I got today had a Pirate back Chinese card in it. Is there much demand for these? Obviously a baseball one is a treasure, but I have no idea about these. If they are worth a few bucks, I may go back and see if he has anymore...

Thanks for any help!

Geno

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Posted By: peter ullman

they're nice...and worth $5-10.

pete in mn

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Posted By: mr. moses

that a compatriot of Martin Murray (guy in Canada can't remember his name and not Steve) or the man himself has/had 70+ of the Pirate baseball cards.... I am a bit skeptical. Alan Hagar did have 4/5 at a show 10+ years ago and my friend purchased one for a bit under 1000.00 if my memory serves me well. Forget about the actual condition when compared to the GRADE it had:-O but rare certainly says it. As for the character cards the Pirate Brand was as popular overseas as "Cycle" and "Sweet Caporal" over here with millions of cigarettes sold and nearly as many cards available. The cards are mostly a novelty item and I have a few different style packs, trade card, and a clock as "go-withs" (oooops dirty word:-)) which is how I would approach the card. To the pickers that would try and take advantage of the paucity of actual baseball cards and a general lack of knowledge especially BEFORE eBay; these cards had asking prices of 40.00 and up. They can be had now for a reasonable 5.00 to 10.00.. I'll try and post some pix on "the other board" of the artifacts that relate in a future tobacco pack thread......

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Posted By: Cobby33

Unfortunately, the price estimate above is fairly accurate. I have one only because it's the closest I'll ever come to a "real" T215 Pirate back.

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Posted By: Bob

I recall Gary Nucherino buying a beautiful T206 Tinker with a Pirate back which was (I think) graded authentic 2 years ago for a nice price on ebay. It was a beautiful card and saw it in Chicago. I remember it was slabbed and I believe it was slabbed as "authentic."
Gary?

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Posted By: Zach Rice

There is currently a graded example of a T215 with a Pirate Cigarettes back in Clean Sweep Auctions. Also, when Mastro's live auction at the National was discussed, Doug Allen mentioned they would be auctioning a large group of "T215 Pirate cards". I can only assume these are the rare Pirate Cigarette backs and not the Red Cross T215s.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Unfortunately, there are no scans of the front of the card!

I believe there was also a T215 Pirate in an auction a year or so ago where the final price was adjusted, as there was evidence of trimming (despite having received a numerical grade). But- as someone pointed out before, most (if not all) of these were originally hand-cut, so does this qualify as "trimming?"

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Posted By: Craig H

Dang, I have one and paid about $30 for it(in 1999). I've been searching for information on non-sports issues such as these but without much success. I don't plan on getting more, but got one because of the back.

Craig

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Posted By: mr. moses

I'd be interested in the thread or article that says they were hand cut and how they came to that conclusion..... Do you remember the approximate date? Thanks in advance.
friendly,
henry

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Posted By: Cobby33

Henry- I believe I saw that in SCD, however the SCD I have in front of me (2006) only says, "[t]here is reason to believe the 'standard' tobacco card length of 2-5/8" (width 1-7/16") may not be universally applicable to the Pirate cards, possibly because of packaging considerations."

Maybe 2007 sheds more light on it, or maybe I saw it in another source. I'll check and if I come up with anything, will let you know.

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

fwiw, I thought they were handcut too. The few ones I've seen look handcut, anyway.

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Posted By: Dave G

Be VERY careful if you see any lots of baseball Pirate backs - there is a major problem in europe with counterfeit chinese issues, cards, posters etc etc.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I have never seen a handcut one. Most are trimmed at the top or bottom as the good ones I have seen are a bit diagonal cut. I have one of the few full size ones I have seen and no where does it appear hand cut.

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Posted By: daryle

I ran across a large group of these cards at a show in the late 90s (think there was 63 of them). I bought like 15 of them and then turned and sold 13. I noticed that a couple had the advertisement for "Pirate Magnums" on the back instead of just "Pirate". There were only like 2 in the stack with this ad. I bought both but sold one and kept one. Any thoughts? Tougher? Has anyone ever noticed this difference? Will post a scan when I dig it out later......


edited to add----I noticed a size variance issue among the posts......the "Pirate Magnum" card I think is larger than the one I have with just the "Pirate" ad back. I will check later today and scan both, side-by-side to get an idea

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Posted By: Anonymous

with SB although only my wife is always right. Dat be da reason I was curious and hence the question......

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Posted By: Marc S.

the current SMR touts that the Mastro Live Auction will include Ninety-Four (yes, you read that correctly, 94) Pirate-back baseball cards.

Presumably to be auctioned off as a group...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, I guess that ends its run as a great rarity. Even if they are offered as a group and one person gets them all and puts them away, knowing that 94 of them are out there will take away some of their mystique.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

93 other guys/gals that would like to go in with me on this lot?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- the logistics of organizing that group would add a few gray hairs for sure...but count me in. I might even take two!

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Posted By: Steve Murray

that leaves 90. I'm starting a list

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Posted By: Cobby33

Count me in for a couple! (Assuming we're not talking about the nice Asian pastoral scenes)...

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Posted By: peter ullman

steve...i'm in for one.

pete ullman

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Posted By: mr. moses

I need one"-)
friendly,
henry moses

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Posted By: Cobby33

I think it would be foolish for them to do them all as one lot (assuming of course this is all accurate). Seems it would be more profitable doing several lots, as they would reach a multitude of bidders, versus one who could afford the whole thing (aside from our consortium, of course).

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Posted By: Marc S.

I envision it would not be all as one lot, but perhaps four or five, with some of the HOFers (assuming there are any) segregated out, with the 'commons' sold in one group.

Since it will be a live auction, instead of Online/phone, I imagine that Mastro will not be able to pull that sort of auction style whereby it either goes to the singles or to the group, depending on which cumulative bids are higher.

~ms

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Posted By: Trae R.

"I recall Gary Nucherino buying a beautiful T206 Tinker with a Pirate back which was (I think) graded authentic..."

Is this correct? A T206?

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

Does the "go with" clock that you mentioned earlier look like this?

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Posted By: mr. moses

and before you LMK that it isn't real or period - I bought it as a novelty from someone that bought it as real. I am unsure (feel it probably ISN'T), never researched it, and never black lighted it or took it to a real clock guy. My questions about it's authenticity were evoked and precipitated by the 5-6-7 that showed up on eBay (too many - although there could be other reasons), the insert was different on most of the ones I saw, and the knowledge that many Pirate related things are and have been er ah "pirated".... Subsequently my friend forwarded an email from someone who said they were the head of XXX chapter of the clock dealers association; and that the clocks were modern creations. He also forwarded me an email from someone else (perhaps the seller"-)) who was sure they were a warehouse find. I bought it CHEAP - liked the graphics as it looks out from my shelf - and it went with my Pirate pack. I own three items I don't thing are what they are purported to be - Duke chair from major "tin" dealer that has a replaced pair of inserts - devil cigar holder that has Philips screws - and the clock. I hope the rest of what I own is real and trust that I have done the necessary homework to ascertain that it is. BUT...........

"It's hard to make things foolproof
as fools are so inventive".

Do you know anything different than my thoughts?

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Posted By: Bob C

Interesting thread. What makes it intertesting is I thought all of the baseball player cards from this series showed packs "closed" on reverse while the others all showed "opened" packs. What makes Genos's post unique is his reverse shows closed pack and it is not a baseball player. Anyone have input/knowledge on this?

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Posted By: Bob

I'd be in for 2 Pirate back baseball cards also.
tbob

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Posted By: mr. moses

for an extended period of time (non-sport ones) so it's no stretch that there are different back configurations. If there are implications to be made of MERIT relative to the BASEBALL ones, then I think one would have to see a good deal of examples, and until now at least the paucity of such cards in the market precludes that.
As for my clock-maybe Gai could grade and encapsulate it for me if it's real:-). BTW NOT singling out GAI for any reason...... I have a some cards and a pack in their holders. They discounted nicely for a bulk submission, offer a nice background, and were convenient to access when I attended a prior National.... They might not sell for as much as the next guy for now, but I'm not selling the cards "I" put in the holders in the for seeable future.
friendly,
henry

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Posted By: T206Collector

...what is the appropriate ACC designation for a Pirate Tobacco card? Is it T215?

Answered my own question:

http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t215/t215.asp?cardsetID=713

If the brown letters were issued between 1910-1912 (and the Washington pose of Pelty suggests 1912 (or later), then there would have been a significant overlap with T206, where the fronts would have been, well, identical. Why call it a T215 and not a T206? Is it because it was created by a non-ATC affiliate? That it spanned beyond 1911? Is it actually a bigger card? Thoughts?

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Posted By: Steve Murray

11 spoken for so far.

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Posted By: leon

As long as the other 83 (baseball) Pirates cards stay under $10 each I will take the rest.....Seriously I would be in for 1-2....

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Posted By: Richard

I have done a little research on these cards and will post some scans tonight.

The Chinese warriors come with three back variations. The most common is the open pack variety. There is also a closed pack variation which is much much tougher and a third which has a shrunken down image, also very tough.

The Chinese beauties come with only the closed pack variation, as far as I can tell.

The Magnum Pirate backed cards are a little larger than typical tobacco size and are also quite tough. I have only seen a handful.

There are also period pirate postcards.

Will post scans later.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I've always wondered about the T215 designation as well, given that there are already two issues (Red Cross Type I and II) with that designation- from a completely different manufacturer/region.

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Posted By: Richard

Here are some scans:

3 different Pirate back variations found on the Warrior series:

1) Closed pack - tough
2) Open pack small image - note cannon size, text on side of package, etc - tough
3) Open pack regular - common

One other thing to note is that the backs are printed in a variety of colors from brown to yellow to green and every shade in between.



Here is a scan of the Magnum back which is pretty tough. Also is a scan of the backs of two Chinese Proverb cards.



And finally the Pirate backed postcards:

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

I wish I could add more about the clock but, like you, I just bought it because I saw it on eBay one day and thought it was pretty neat. I probably over paid a bit for it but it is still a neat looking piece.

I think that you are correct that it is not period and was likely made much later. I'm thinking that its maybe 40s-50s but its just a guess.

Count me in on the N54 posse if someone is seriously going to put together a group to go after the Mastro lot. I would go a bit for either a Phillies or A's example.

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Posted By: scott hassel

Guess I was the guy with Henry that bought that Pirate card from Hager back in the early 90's. I have since bought 3 variations of packs and even found a rare round version tin that held 50 cigarettes. There are tons of fake large size cards around and calanders. Beware. Count me in for 2 of those cards. Min condition EX+.

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Steve, count me in for a card or two as well. Consider this the ultimate Net 54 cabal (if they all go in one lot).

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Another member has emailed Doug who will only confirm that they have the cards and they will be in the Auction. Apparently they are at SGC now and look to grade vgex to exmt.

If the guide is any indication of value an ex would run 2,500+. That of course is based on apparent scarcity. What an influx of 94 into the hobby will do to value is something to be considered.

Also, there must be some duplication. SCD has catalogued 92 with many HOFers. No Cobb but the Johnson books at 10K+.

Curious to hear what you expect to have to pay for just one common.

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Posted By: Anonymous

The Clean Sweep trimmed Pirate card is at $7600 + juice with 21 days to go. WOW

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Posted By: Cobby33

I sure hope Barry's prognosis is correct!

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Posted By: mr. moses

would be appreciated by a bald man. That couldn't be what you are referring to:-) If it's that they would lose some of their mystique I would think not. It seems that the pool of interested parties, the type collectors, or those with investor mentalities could easily absorb such a quantity.......

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Posted By: Zach Rice

Here is the Tinker that was mentioned above:

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=54451&CurrentRow=1


It seens like a good deal when compared to the current T215 Pirate back in Clean Sweep.

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Posted By: Cobby33

We'll see what Clean Sweep actually gets paid for it, with the rash of over-zealous bidders and the new hoard/find.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

No Mention of the Pirates.

MASTRO AUCTIONS LIVE EVENT AT THE NATIONAL

We will be presenting an extremely prestigious live auction (our first ever) at the National Sports Collector's Convention in Cleveland, on the evening of Friday, August 3rd, that will be limited to only 100 of the very “best of the best sports collectibles in our hobby. The bidding will take place on the internet, for two weeks leading up to the auction, then live in the room, and on the telephone the night of the auction. Already in the fold are: a T206 Honus Wagner card; a T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb reverse, as well as a magnificent example of the Ty Cobb tobacco tin that these rare cards were issued in; a 1933 Goudey Napoleon Lajoie card (SGC 88); a Joe DiMaggio rookie-era game used bat; Hank Aarons 1954 signed rookie contract, Mickey Mantles 500th home run baseball... to mention just a few. This auction will have national advertising and promotion, and will be preceded by an invitation only dinner/banquet at the House of Blues in downtown Cleveland. There will be a separate catalog for this sale (all of the 100 lots will be featured on a double-page spread), and all of the pieces will be on view at our booths at the convention. We are taking these items in at the present time, and once we reach the 100 lot ceiling we will close the consignment process.

P.S. I'll be curious to see who gets invited to the dinner

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Posted By: Geno

I picked up some cool Pirate cards today, so I went back to review this thread as I remembered Richard's scans of the different backs. Here's a new one for you, although it isn't baseball on the front, but birds instead. Anyway, I thought it was kind of cool and added info to the thread...maybe I should have post it on the Non-Sports side to be more "correct," but it's nice to keep the thread all in one place! As you can tell by the little camera thing, it's an Ebay scan - I should have the cards in a few days...

Take Care, Geno

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Posted By: Bill Kasel

Definitely count me in for one if we are truly goig into this with that bidding strategy.

I may be out of the collecting market now, but a chance like this is too good to pass up.

Thanks!

Bill Kasel