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  #51  
Old 11-22-2018, 09:50 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
The sad thing is that the original before restoration wasn't so bad.
I think that depends upon your tolerance for beater supremes, Jeff. Along with my PSA 7 R316 Ott rookie, I have one in SGC poor that I bought on a whim some years ago because it was the best centered one I had ever seen. However, it also has a tack hole through Mel's hat brim, and appears to have had the lower right corner chewed off by the original owner's dog! Some days I can tolerate it and some I have difficulty with even keeping it. The former are when I think of what a truly great player Mel Ott was (155 OPS+, tied with Hank Aaron, and just one point behind Mays; 180% plus of league average runs created, placing him in the same category with each of the two above, along with Mize and Foxx; average full season over his career of approximately .304 BA, 30 HR, 100 RBI, 100 walks, and .414 OBP, 12-time all-star, and 6-time HR leader). I am personally not one who suffers beaters easily unless they are ultra rare and significant, and the '29 R316 Ott, while relatively scarce (the '29 Leader Novelty is out and out rare!), is not rare.

Just had to get that out of my system, I guess. To those of you reading this thread, my apologies for the literary outburst!

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Last edited by ls7plus; 11-22-2018 at 09:52 PM.
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  #52  
Old 11-22-2018, 10:29 PM
jfkheat jfkheat is offline
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I would be concerned with what the card will look like 10 years from now
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  #53  
Old 11-22-2018, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfkheat View Post
I would be concerned with what the card will look like 10 years from now
The restoration was 9 1/2 years ago.

Last edited by Pat R; 11-23-2018 at 06:57 AM.
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  #54  
Old 11-23-2018, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by insidethewrapper View Post
Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.


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  #55  
Old 11-23-2018, 01:27 AM
slightlyrounded slightlyrounded is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insidethewrapper View Post
Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.
On the plus side, no centering or corner issues! From the lot description:

"Near-perfect centering between the added upper and side borders, even corner wear reflecting VG/EX quality, and a virtually completely enhanced Sweet Caporal 150 Subject, Factory 25 verso...."

Last edited by slightlyrounded; 11-23-2018 at 02:31 AM.
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  #56  
Old 11-23-2018, 01:44 AM
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I agree that there is a difference between restoration and such a wholesale change with foreign parts that there is a question if the card can be considered original/authentic. As a collector of original items, I wouldn't be interested in the latter. "Some of it is original" isn't enough for me. If someone else doesn't have a problem with owning it, I'm not going to argue with them as it is in part a matter of personal sentiments, taste and philosophy. People collect game used jerseys with added on missing nameplates and numbers.

One instance where major wholesale change with foreign material is justifiable to me is when the central image is majorly damaged. I still wouldn't want to own it, but I understand and appreciate why that would be done.

Last edited by drcy; 11-23-2018 at 02:01 AM.
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  #57  
Old 11-23-2018, 07:18 AM
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Am not a fan of this at all. Where should one draw the line between restored and counterfeit?

I do wonder, if the owner was willing to do this to his card, why he didn't first cut it into 10 pieces and have the company turn them into 10 restored Wagners.

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  #58  
Old 11-23-2018, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason.1969 View Post
Am not a fan of this at all. Where should one draw the line between restored and counterfeit?

I do wonder, if the owner was willing to do this to his card, why he didn't first cut it into 10 pieces and have the company turn them into 10 restored Wagners.

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Or to sell it to a manufacturer as a relic card!


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  #59  
Old 11-23-2018, 07:59 AM
mq711 mq711 is offline
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PSA refused to grade a 71T because they said color was added, why not a restored "grade."
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  #60  
Old 11-23-2018, 08:05 AM
ClementeFanOh ClementeFanOh is offline
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Default RESTORED Wagner

Jason and Mike- ahh, the voices of reason! Thanks, guys. You gave voice to what I had trouble expressing late last night (too much turkey, I suppose). In the specific Wagner card that is the topic of this thread, the card is no better than a counterfeit. The original couldn't even be classified as a "card" anymore, it was a rag and thus not even "eligible" (in my mind, merely opinion) for slabbing in the first place. In this case the owner was honest enough to have it marked "restored"- although I think "reanimated" may be closer to the truth. What happens when/if someone does this, breaks it out, and passes it off as authentic- which it is NOT, no argument. It's a slippery slope...
As a comic fan who has an extensive collection, I can tell you I have exactly ZERO comics that have been "restored". The reasons are simple- the restorer had nothing to do with the production of the comic, and less ethical folks will try to pass them off as the real deal.
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  #61  
Old 11-23-2018, 08:13 AM
LincolnVT LincolnVT is offline
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Default Wagner

Why wasn't the original card cut into pieces so that several 200k+ restored cards could be made?
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  #62  
Old 11-23-2018, 09:23 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default Jeff....

I am in complete agreement with you
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  #63  
Old 11-23-2018, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason.1969 View Post
Am not a fan of this at all. Where should one draw the line between restored and counterfeit?

I do wonder, if the owner was willing to do this to his card, why he didn't first cut it into 10 pieces and have the company turn them into 10 restored Wagners.

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That's right, plant the seed.... That's actually a very good point. Either that or have a card company cut up a poor Wagner and then put them in packs like they do with uniforms and bats.

Fixing/filling a pin hole or adding a little color (black on an N300, for example) is one thing, completely reconstructing a card and adding a lot of material is completely different.
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  #64  
Old 11-23-2018, 11:50 AM
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Does anyone know the selling price of the card before it was restored?
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  #65  
Old 11-24-2018, 01:14 PM
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Some good comments and observations so far.

i was surfing around the internet this weekend, and saw several PSA cards marked
AUTHENTIC
ALTERED

Including things like markers to corners, color touch ups, etc.

I realize PSA put "RESTORED" on the Wagner, but wondering if most wouldn't agree that the card wasn't also "ALTERED"?

It was certainly recolored, along with the extensive work on the back.

I'd sure like to hear some commentary from PSA on how they ultimately made this flip determination.
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  #66  
Old 11-24-2018, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bounce View Post
Some good comments and observations so far.

i was surfing around the internet this weekend, and saw several PSA cards marked
AUTHENTIC
ALTERED

Including things like markers to corners, color touch ups, etc.

I realize PSA put "RESTORED" on the Wagner, but wondering if most wouldn't agree that the card wasn't also "ALTERED"?

It was certainly recolored, along with the extensive work on the back.

I'd sure like to hear some commentary from PSA on how they ultimately made this flip determination.
You canít restore the card without altering it. Restored is the only term you need.
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  #67  
Old 11-24-2018, 03:23 PM
unamuzd1 unamuzd1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Yes, I know. I would leave the RESTORED part and remove the AUTHENTIC. I really don't feel that is an authentic card in the strictest sense. Parts of it are, but not all of it. At minimum, a better description is warranted.
This was my reaction as well.

Of course, I'm one of those weirdos who would rather have the totally-jacked original version in his collection.
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  #68  
Old 11-24-2018, 03:40 PM
bounce bounce is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
You canít restore the card without altering it. Restored is the only term you need.
"ALTERED" seems to carry a completely different connotation to it than "RESTORED" does, no?

If something is done to a card to make it look better than it did before, why wouldn't RESTORED apply almost every time?

Just wondering how exactly how that determination is made and when it changes from one to another.
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  #69  
Old 11-24-2018, 03:45 PM
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At what point do you call a "restoration" something else? What's a term for a "total rebuild" (or complete overhaul) of the card? Adding borders and most likely taking the back from another card and overlaying seems to be a bit more than a "restoration" job. "Altered" seems a bit mild.
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  #70  
Old 11-24-2018, 03:49 PM
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Frame off restoration
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  #71  
Old 11-24-2018, 04:18 PM
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More like putting a Ferrari hood on a Pontiac Fiero.
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  #72  
Old 11-24-2018, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bounce View Post
"ALTERED" seems to carry a completely different connotation to it than "RESTORED" does, no?

If something is done to a card to make it look better than it did before, why wouldn't RESTORED apply almost every time?

Just wondering how exactly how that determination is made and when it changes from one to another.
As I understand it, restoration is bringing the card back towards itís original state. Trimming, for example, may be done to improve itsí appearance, but it, in and of itself, is not restoration.
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  #73  
Old 11-24-2018, 06:32 PM
slightlyrounded slightlyrounded is offline
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These flips are getting ridiculous....
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  #74  
Old 11-24-2018, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by slightlyrounded View Post
These flips are getting ridiculous....
I think you won the internet for today
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  #75  
Old 11-24-2018, 07:51 PM
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You're right on target, Anson!
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  #76  
Old 11-24-2018, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred View Post
At what point do you call a "restoration" something else? What's a term for a "total rebuild" (or complete overhaul) of the card? Adding borders and most likely taking the back from another card and overlaying seems to be a bit more than a "restoration" job. "Altered" seems a bit mild.

The way I read the restoration invoice was that most of the
back is original and the scrapbook paper was soaked off. You can see
some of the stains on the restored example that match the original.

Last edited by Pat R; 11-24-2018 at 07:58 PM.
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  #77  
Old 11-25-2018, 12:17 PM
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As a bit of a purist I like the ragged one better. But it's not by a longshot nor do I matter as I am not spending that kind of money (I don't have that kind of money) on a card. The market will decide. And at the moment it's about a 200k decision. I suspect it gets some more action but who knows? The restored copy looks pretty darned good from a scan on a monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bounce View Post
ML auction opened this week, there is some great stuff in there. Got my catalog in the mail yesterday. Was excited to see how the T206 Wagner did. Not a card I can afford, but always like watching the action on these.

The catalog had the regular write-up for a card of this caliber, which in my opinion has gotten so overdone. These cards don't need that level of description and hype, but that's a discussion for another day. What I didn't realize was just how extensive the "restoration" was on this card. The catalog doesn't show the back, but you can see it on the website. The back makes it much easier to see signs of just how much "grafting" of the borders was done. The description almost hypes the $14,000 spent fixing this thing up.

Sure - it looks nice I guess, but as a collector, this thing isn't REALLY a T206 any more.

I've been saying for years now that high end cards act much more like artwork when it comes to pricing, so maybe in some way this kind of thing was to be expected. However, at some level for me, this card has been so altered at this point, it's not really an "original" anymore. Using the artwork analogy, this seems more like a lithograph or a limited edition print than it does an original.

Or maybe think real estate - we can now just invest in some "remodeling" costs to make cards look better? I know there's other things like bleaching, etc. that have been done, not a fan of that either really but this was pretty extensive.

Just wondering how other people view this sort of restoration project.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com

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  #78  
Old 11-25-2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
The way I read the restoration invoice was that most of the
back is original and the scrapbook paper was soaked off. You can see
some of the stains on the restored example that match the original.
Heck, we can't even trust the restoration invoice.... before/after pictures seem to do a good job.
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  #79  
Old 11-25-2018, 04:34 PM
dabigyankeeman dabigyankeeman is offline
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Hard to believe a card could be restored like that. One day nobody will be able to tell a restored card from a real one, then what happens to value and who would want to buy them.

At what point too does an item become NOT the item anymore? If you own an axe used by George Washington and its made up of two pieces, the metal cutting piece and the wood handle, and you first replace the metal cutting piece, then replace the wood handle, is it still George Washingtons axe? I know this is the original card modified, but one day it will be a 99% new, then what is it?
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  #80  
Old 11-25-2018, 05:00 PM
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Leon,

Can you please post a link to the item in the auction.

Thanks!
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  #81  
Old 11-26-2018, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
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I don't have any issue with the restoration. It is fully disclosed and the card looks 1000% times better now.
Ditto. I'd much rather have the restored version over the original,
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  #82  
Old 11-27-2018, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
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Ditto. I'd much rather have the restored version over the original,
Agree the restored version is beautiful. And it's fully disclosed that's it's restored so nothing to hide.
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  #83  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:55 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default guys...

This card is a "FRANKEN WAGNER"

restoration should be left to art .....NOT CARDS!

IN MY OPINION, THEY KILLED A BEAUTY !

once something is altered, it changes the integrity of the original card....

trimming, paper loss I can live with.....card is still original in these cases...

this card has been basically "created" and is not original.....

someone ruined a masterpiece and spent 14 k to do it!

this is insanity.....the card is WAY overpriced right now!


card in current state should be a 100 k card or under......


If I had this, I would spend multi k to see if I could get it "unrestored" although I think in this case might be impossible....


heck, while they were at it, they should have made the background pink and changed han's hairstyle
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  #84  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:08 AM
dabigyankeeman dabigyankeeman is offline
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I posted earlier in this thread how I hated someone restoring a card then selling it. However, last nite I was watching a Mecum auto auction on tv and I realized that I loved the restored cars they were selling and what is the difference between them and the restored baseball card.

The restored cars I love have a bunch of new parts added that look like the original, they have been re-painted, and so on. It really made me re-thing my attitude towards restoring cards. I dont think I am so negative about them anymore!!
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  #85  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:29 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default in all due respect

these are "cards" ....not "cars"........a huge difference!!!

1)coins are not restored or "recreated" are they(besides cleaning polishing, distorting them)....NO ONE WOULD ADD MORE GOLD , SILVER, RESTRIKE IT???

2) what about stamps???someone going to add paper and recolor the upside airplane???????

these examples would ADD MATERIAL to something that is original thus altering the integrity of the original!!! thus changing the object...

this Wagner is a RE-CREATION" and not a "RESTORATION"

flip should state "FRANKEN WAGNER RE-CREATION" and not "RESTORED"


think about this....you can only "go by the restoration report"

what if the idiot doing the restoration forgot to add something or delete something he/she didn't do or do to the card?????it is tampered with significantly enough to change this card into something other than an original WAGNER!!!

it has foreign material added to it!!!!!!!!!!(card board from another card, foreign ink that they didn't use back then)


it is ok to soak the card and remove the paper from the back and maybe dirt on it, but that would be enough!!!

this card was altered significantly enough to ruin it!!


someone ruined this card , and some poor sap is going to buy something where technically you don't really know what was done to it!! only an invoice


I don't know, I don't like "fake boobs" either....

if your thing is paying out the asshole for something someone basically re created, more power to you!

don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with owning one, if I had this one, it would drive me nuts to the point of where I would want to trim the fake ass border off!!

THIS IS INSANITY!


I would take the die cut wagner or the wagner cut in 2 before I bought a recreation.....shit, get a reproduction and cut and paste heinie wagner on the fucker
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  #86  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:31 AM
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I don't like fake boobs either!!!!!! But the fact is with the internet...and globalization...demand has increased for the iconic cards of the hobby...and I believe this is only the beginning of the "restoration" of cards. I don't like it...but I'm a realist!



Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvster View Post
these are "cards" ....not "cars"........a huge difference!!!

1)coins are not restored or "recreated" are they(besides cleaning polishing, distorting them)....NO ONE WOULD ADD MORE GOLD , SILVER, RESTRIKE IT???

2) what about stamps???someone going to add paper and recolor the upside airplane???????

these examples would ADD MATERIAL to something that is original thus altering the integrity of the original!!! thus changing the object...

this Wagner is a RE-CREATION" and not a "RESTORATION"

flip should state "FRANKEN WAGNER RE-CREATION" and not "RESTORED"


think about this....you can only "go by the restoration report"

what if the idiot doing the restoration forgot to add something or delete something he/she didn't do or do to the card?????it is tampered with significantly enough to change this card into something other than an original WAGNER!!!

it has foreign material added to it!!!!!!!!!!(card board from another card, foreign ink that they didn't use back then)


it is ok to soak the card and remove the paper from the back and maybe dirt on it, but that would be enough!!!

this card was altered significantly enough to ruin it!!


someone ruined this card , and some poor sap is going to buy something where technically you don't really know what was done to it!! only an invoice


I don't know, I don't like "fake boobs" either....

if your thing is paying out the asshole for something someone basically re created, more power to you!

don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with owning one, if I had this one, it would drive me nuts to the point of where I would want to trim the fake ass border off!!

THIS IS INSANITY!


I would take the die cut wagner or the wagner cut in 2 before I bought a recreation.....shit, get a reproduction and cut and paste heinie wagner on the fucker
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  #87  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
I don't like fake boobs either!!!!!! But the fact is with the internet...and globalization...demand has increased for the iconic cards of the hobby...and I believe this is only the beginning of the "restoration" of cards. I don't like it...but I'm a realist!
So what next? Is someone going to cut a real Wagner in two and make 2 Wagners by "restoring" them? Where does it stop? Restored Wagner 10% real? 5%? 1%?
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  #88  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:52 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default Pete....

you and I and a few other "purists" not trying to label us or anyone, I think Jeff might agree and Barry ect.....

This sort of restoration should never make it into cards.......it opens the flood gates !!! this, to me, would ruin part of our hobby in a way.....

forgers and restorers will become synonamous


there is almost a beauty to cards that may have been well loved and creased and some paper loss, but those are the scars of time.....

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....

hate to use the analogy, fake boobs feel "hard" when touched! nice to look at, but they are the doctors creation! that is a whole other discussion I wouldn't play with what God created!

God also created the Wagner card.....


yes, I like restored cars, especially when you are driving it for safety......an old muscle card with new suspension and brakes are a safety issue, but I still love the "herky jerky " steering of the original muscle car!!

these alterations may enhace the look of titties or handling on a car.....but when it comes to cardboard, it is just not right!!

not all change is good, especially some of the political climate now adays....


but I do know one thing, excepting recreations like this may aid in the further pollution of out hobby...


some asshole will "enhance a t206" by autographing it themselves.....soon cards will have "BUILT UP RESTORED CORNERS" OR "BEAUTIFUL NEW COLOR AND GLOSS"


and all we will have to rely on is a "restorer"


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  #89  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:58 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default I was reluctant

and was going to start this thread, so I am glad the original poster did......I did not want to "dog" this card, or the take away the buyers thunder or the seller.......

yes, I have been searching for a Wagner my whole life(since 11 years old) and came close many years ago , but did not get one.....

and full disclosure- I would take a Wagner anyway I could....I , like many, can not afford one.......so if someone offered this too me at a cheap price, I would take it.....but not even at 10% of what it is now!!!!

this needs to be discussed, because RATS you are 100% correct....


who ever buys this.......have it cut into 24 wagners......and restore each one


each one can have a "piece" of the original....

then we can truly call it what it is and where to hobby would be going.....


to shit
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  #90  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:08 AM
C-mack C-mack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
So what next? Is someone going to cut a real Wagner in two and make 2 Wagners by "restoring" them? Where does it stop? Restored Wagner 10% real? 5%? 1%?

I'm sure card grading companies much like comic grading companies require X amount of the original to be present for them to give it an grade with restore notations. In comics you cant just have a page of action #1 and recreate the rest and still get a grade,hell you cant even have the whole interior and fake covers and pull that off...

Last edited by C-mack; 11-28-2018 at 08:32 AM.
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  #91  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:13 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default C-Mack

great point!!

where does it end?????

where do we draw the line????

there is a fine line between restoration and recreation.....where do we draw it in cards????????????

the answer is-


WE DON'T


leave them original! unless a light soaking in plain water of foreign material (scrap book removal, simple dirt, ect)
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  #92  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:14 AM
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Snapolit1 Snapolit1 is offline
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It's disclosed. That the sort of honest dialog we want as collectors. Buy it if you want a restored card.
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  #93  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:16 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default by the way.....

grading companies change the rules all the time.......sometimes just to fit their needs.....

who is to say what percentage the card needs to be to be considered original?>??


i'll say it.....ALL OF IT!!

if it is trimmed, it can get and authentic....

once ANYTHING, I MEAN ANYTHING IS ADDED TO A CARD...the card is no longer an original...it is a recreation



it is a simple as that


THE WAGNER SHOULD READ- "RECREATION"
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  #94  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:20 AM
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ullmandds ullmandds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
It's disclosed. That the sort of honest dialog we want as collectors. Buy it if you want a restored card.
I agree...as long as it is disclosed...I'm ok with it. BUT...when cards like this are sold/auctioned the before and after should always be shown...we shouldn't have to hunt for it.
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  #95  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:43 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default also....

I wonder what type of ink was used for all the touch up????? the shit from a photo copier??? or did they hit Sherman Williams?????


also, I wonder if they went green and used recycled cardboard ????? or just hacked up another T206???? I wonder if the used a TITUS???


I can go on, and on....
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  #96  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:46 AM
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ullmandds ullmandds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvster View Post
I wonder what type of ink was used for all the touch up????? the shit from a photo copier??? or did they hit Sherman Williams?????


also, I wonder if they went green and used recycled cardboard ????? or just hacked up another T206???? I wonder if the used a TITUS???


I can go on, and on....
Hopefully they used a titus Johny...or maybe a scrap!!!!! I'd assume any card restorer worth their weight in cardboard would destroy another t206 for the mulch needed for restoration.
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  #97  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:50 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default Pete

excellent point.....

there should be FULL DISCLOSURE! putting that in the description was purposely left out....jeeze...every ah puts in a whole blown up financial analysis .... why wouldn't they put this in???? it truly shows how extensive this franken - wagner is......full disclosure would have shown the card used to add to the borders....

the invoice and before and after pic should have been in the description....

it really shows how EXTENSIVE THE RECREATION IS!

spend a quarter of a million on a re creation?????
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  #98  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:59 AM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
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They say, to each his own.

In this case, each can keep his own, as far as I am concerned. Awful.
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Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.
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  #99  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:32 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default Pete

pete!! hahaha...wouldn't that be great!!!! maybe some particle board is in there??????????? why not some mulch???? hahahaha!!! why not throw a scrap in there???

btw....who was the restorer???? some 17 year old school kid???????? hahahaha

buwhahahaha!!!


Peter....+1

I can go on all day about this......maybe the restorer signed the card somewhere???? I wonder if he hid a hidden meaning in the mosaic litho print in the background when it was recolored(like - sucka)
?????????


hahahaha!!!
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  #100  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:46 AM
mq711 mq711 is offline
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This is like getting the seats of a 65 Mustang and using a "kit car" to rebuild the vehicle. Looks nice but is it really a Classic Car?
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