NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #201  
Old 01-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Scott Garner's Avatar
Scott Garner Scott Garner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 5,420
Default Replicas = fakes

In David's defense on this Ruth ball issue, as Brandon pointed out previously the counterfeiter replicator only needs a photograph of a real signed ball to go from, which means that all it took was one case of David showing off his ball in a public forum with a nice, large, close-up photo of it, and the counterfeiter artist who produces these has all the ammo he needs.

Like Lance!
Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 01-22-2012, 07:00 PM
thekingofclout's Avatar
thekingofclout thekingofclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,958
Default question...

I've posted my Gehrig signed post card several times over the last few years. Now, can a "replicator and/or forger" then use my autograph to create a single signed sweet-spot on an original c. 1930's slightly toned American League Ball?

gehrigjimmycloseup.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 01-22-2012, 07:12 PM
RichardSimon's Avatar
RichardSimon RichardSimon is offline
Richard Simon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York City
Posts: 5,390
Default

King, I think you would have to ask the replicator that question.
Maybe if we stopped showing off our stuff (me too) they would have nothing to replicate
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history.
-
Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first.
www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports
--
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 01-22-2012, 07:53 PM
baseballart's Avatar
baseballart baseballart is offline
Max Weder
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 1,131
Default

Jimmy

One thing that can be done to make it more difficult is to add a watermark

Max

__________________
Max Weder www.flickr.com/photos/baseballart for baseball art, books, ephemera, and cards and Twitter @maxweder
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 01-22-2012, 11:21 PM
egbeachley's Avatar
egbeachley egbeachley is offline
Eric Bea.chley
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by earlywynnfan View Post
David, it's not like you to be so quiet. Can you tell us how the artist copied your ball? Has it been in your possession for a long time?

Regards,
Ken
I think that would be the realization that, at worst, he has the same replica autograph, albeit on a better ball. Or, at best, this ball has lost much of its value with there being 'near exact' duplicates easily available.

Last edited by egbeachley; 01-22-2012 at 11:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 01-23-2012, 03:17 AM
henson1855 henson1855 is offline
Mike Henson
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 104
Default

To King , I make my own repo balls, I buy my balls custom stitched in red/black or red/blue, it would take me about 10 minutes to replicate that sample on the sweetspot of a baseball.I do not sell my creations, or even really show them,the photo I posted yesterday in the other thread was the first and only time, they are for the most part just impossible to find balls or non existant combos like Waddell and Plank or McGinnity and Matty.Today, I did a 1920 Indians team ball with Chapman and a Janis Joplin single signed Giles ball, I can use the same process for bats as well,keep in mind as I said, I am not making these for resale it's just a hobbly not looking to ruffle anyone's feathers.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1227111525.jpg (19.9 KB, 214 views)

Last edited by henson1855; 01-23-2012 at 03:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 01-23-2012, 04:20 AM
thekingofclout's Avatar
thekingofclout thekingofclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,958
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by henson1855 View Post
To King , I make my own repo balls, I buy my balls custom stitched in red/black or red/blue, it would take me about 10 minutes to replicate that sample on the sweetspot of a baseball.I do not sell my creations, or even really show them,the photo I posted yesterday in the other thread was the first and only time, they are for the most part just impossible to find balls or non existant combos like Waddell and Plank or McGinnity and Matty.Today, I did a 1920 Indians team ball with Chapman and a Janis Joplin single signed Giles ball, I can use the same process for bats as well,keep in mind as I said, I am not making these for resale it's just a hobbly not looking to ruffle anyone's feathers.
That's amazing Mike. Thanks for being so straightforward. That's a quality that I deeply respect. Best regards, Jimmy

BTW... Those bats make great display pieces.
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 01-23-2012, 04:27 AM
thekingofclout's Avatar
thekingofclout thekingofclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,958
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballart View Post
Jimmy

One thing that can be done to make it more difficult is to add a watermark

Max

"Maybe if we stopped showing off our stuff (me too) they would have nothing to replicate"

Thanks for the input Max and Richard. However, I think my horses all left the barn a long, long time ago.

BTW... That's a tough looking, well seasoned bunch of ballplayers you got there, Max. And I just love the little kid stuck at the end of the row!

Last edited by thekingofclout; 01-23-2012 at 04:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 01-23-2012, 04:31 AM
henson1855 henson1855 is offline
Mike Henson
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 104
Default

Thank you for the kind words, I bought the bats through Louisville Slugger, they are the dark brown ones with the gold foil branding, I really had to spend some time on them to de-modernize them , but it was a heck of alot cheaper than trying to find vintage store bats that have become so expensive.
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 01-23-2012, 10:01 AM
mark evans mark evans is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by egbeachley View Post
I think that would be the realization that, at worst, he has the same replica autograph, albeit on a better ball. Or, at best, this ball has lost much of its value with there being 'near exact' duplicates easily available.
I don't see how the existence of 'replica' balls would much affect the value of an authentic Ruth ball. The larger problem, especially in today's 'climate,' could be establishing the authenticity of the Ruth ball to the satisfaction of potential buyers.
Reply With Quote
  #211  
Old 01-23-2012, 11:29 AM
yanks12025's Avatar
yanks12025 yanks12025 is offline
Brock L.
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: framingham, ma
Posts: 2,033
Default

Henson,
I know you cant talk about it to much. But I'm curious how you print a auto on a ball or a bat.
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 01-23-2012, 12:25 PM
thecatspajamas's Avatar
thecatspajamas thecatspajamas is offline
L@nce Fit.tro
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Franklin, TN
Posts: 2,351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark evans View Post
I don't see how the existence of 'replica' balls would much affect the value of an authentic Ruth ball. The larger problem, especially in today's 'climate,' could be establishing the authenticity of the Ruth ball to the satisfaction of potential buyers.
I think the previous posters were referring specifically to the particular ball used as a template for the replicas. In and of itself, the value isn't diminished. If a collector has seen 100 replica balls that look very much to exactly like the original though, there will be that bit of doubt that makes them wonder if this one really is authentic, or if the replicas have just gotten better than their discerning eyes. Doubt in the mind of the buyer, however minor, will always affect the price they are willing to pay for an item.

As another example, consider autopen signatures. Presidents and other famous individuals have certain known autopen signature patterns. The pattern or template is based on an actual signature, so somewhere (presumably, for the sake of this example) there exists that actual hand-signed autograph that the autopen template was based on. Yet if you offered that original hand-signed autograph to a collector, it would be difficult for him to dispel from his mind all the autopen duplicates of that signature he had seen in order to pull the trigger on the purchase, despite the signature being 100% authentic.

The same thing happens in other areas of collectibles too, where counterfeits of certain items are so prolific that it becomes harder for a buyer to gain the necessary confidence when an authentic example comes up for sale.
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 01-23-2012, 12:38 PM
mark evans mark evans is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 561
Default

I think we are saying much the same thing. A person who wants and can afford an authentic Ruth ball is not going to find a 'replica' ball very satisfying. However, given the 'sophistication' of the replicas, potential purchasers are likely to insist upon a high standard of proof of authenticity before making the purchase.
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 01-23-2012, 01:17 PM
batsballsbases's Avatar
batsballsbases batsballsbases is offline
Al
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: From Ct+ NY now retired in North Carolina
Posts: 1,863
Default ball

Hi David,
I see in the other thread that they used your ball as a reference in the Halls Of Shame . Love to hear your story about that. Al
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 01-23-2012, 02:02 PM
David Atkatz's Avatar
David Atkatz David Atkatz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,811
Default

I wonder. Is the Grabowski signature that appears on my ball a replication, too?



None of the fountain pen "structure" appears on the replica balls--the double lines produced by the split nib, the places where one line crosses another, etc. All of this is easily visible on my ball because the pen was relatively dry--it did not have a strong ink flow. There are pen impressions, as well. There is no doubt the ball was signed.

i posted large close-ups of this ball--and other autographs--here years ago. I will NOT be doing so again.

Last edited by David Atkatz; 01-23-2012 at 03:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 01-23-2012, 03:45 PM
earlywynnfan's Avatar
earlywynnfan earlywynnfan is offline
Ke.n Su.lik
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,638
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz View Post
I wonder. Is the Grabowski signature that appears on my ball a replication, too?



None of the fountain pen "structure" appears on the replica balls--the double lines produced by the split nib, the places where one line crosses another, etc. All of this is easily visible on my ball because the pen was relatively dry--it did not have a strong ink flow. There are pen impressions, as well. There is no doubt the ball was signed.

i posted large close-ups of this ball--and other autographs--here years ago. I will NOT be doing so again.
I'm sure no laws were broken here, but if the artist said "Hey, that Atkaz ball has a sweet auto! I'm going to copy it for art balls," I'd at least think it'd be common courtesy to let the owner of the original know!

That's why I brought this back up, not to say that David had another bad ball or anything. I was wondering if he was even aware his ball had been copied.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 01-23-2012, 03:46 PM
David Atkatz's Avatar
David Atkatz David Atkatz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,811
Default

I was not aware. But my eyes have been opened, again.
Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #218  
Old 01-23-2012, 04:16 PM
henson1855 henson1855 is offline
Mike Henson
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 104
Default

Most of these repos look like stamped, like generic stadium bought novelty balls. I like realism,and anything can be reproduced,even fountain pen splits. David I AM NOT SAYING your ball isn't authentic, just saying with an eye for detail, and the know how,the sigs can look very good, and chipping,fading,ink slit ect. can also be manually added. Someone that is selling replicas on Ebay for 50.00 won't look that impressive,but I seem to like realism with my collection. Here are a few of mine.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0123121335.jpg (10.6 KB, 156 views)
File Type: jpg 0123121405.jpg (11.0 KB, 156 views)
File Type: jpg 0123121401.jpg (12.0 KB, 155 views)
File Type: jpg 0123121356.jpg (11.0 KB, 154 views)

Last edited by henson1855; 01-23-2012 at 04:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 01-23-2012, 04:21 PM
David Atkatz's Avatar
David Atkatz David Atkatz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,811
Default

There doesn't appear to be near that level of detail in the replicas which you posted. Under magnification--and even to the naked eye, at times--fountain pen writing is easily distinguishable from facsimile.

Of course, anything can be "copied." But the ball has not been out of my possession for the last ten years; if the replicas are copies of this signature they were made from photos I posted--and the replicas cannot show more detail than is present in those photos. The ball shows structure at all levels of magnification--far more detail than appears at the resolution of the photos.

Last edited by David Atkatz; 01-23-2012 at 04:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #220  
Old 01-23-2012, 04:31 PM
David Atkatz's Avatar
David Atkatz David Atkatz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,811
Default

C'mon, Mike. Surely you're not saying that those blotchy, thick-lined signatures look real.
Reply With Quote
  #221  
Old 01-23-2012, 04:46 PM
henson1855 henson1855 is offline
Mike Henson
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 104
Default

All I am saying is don't be so quick to assume what is possible and what isn't . What does thick lined ink have to do with anything? These were taken from documented autographed balls that sold at auction,you commented on the split in the ink, all I did was show you it can be replicated, Here is the thick ink Chance ball real or not ,who knows? But,being splotchy and having a thick lined signature, it sold at auction. http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=68017

Last edited by henson1855; 01-23-2012 at 04:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #222  
Old 01-23-2012, 04:48 PM
David Atkatz's Avatar
David Atkatz David Atkatz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,811
Default

Notice the grain perforations in the leather. Notice where the ink has filled in some of them, producing extremely tine dots.

Did the replicator align the printed signature exactly with the microscopic pattern?

Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 01-23-2012, 05:24 PM
henson1855 henson1855 is offline
Mike Henson
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 104
Default

Good point. That would be impossible IMO to replicate. I have always thought your ball was an ink signature, it was not replicated using the technique I use. The ball and autographs could be but you are 100% right, under a microscope it would be noticeable.

Last edited by henson1855; 01-23-2012 at 05:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #224  
Old 01-23-2012, 08:14 PM
Mr. Zipper Mr. Zipper is offline
Steve Zarelli
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz View Post
Notice the grain perforations in the leather. Notice where the ink has filled in some of them, producing extremely tine dots.

Did the replicator align the printed signature exactly with the microscopic pattern?

Could you please post a larger scan? 300 dpi perhaps.

Reply With Quote
  #225  
Old 01-23-2012, 08:44 PM
Scott Garner's Avatar
Scott Garner Scott Garner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 5,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz View Post
C'mon, Mike. Surely you're not saying that those blotchy, thick-lined signatures look real.
Mike,

I mean no disrespect, but I'd have to agree with David on this one. I wouldn't be fooled by either the Big Ed Walsh or Cy Young facsimile balls. Both look pretty clumsy, IMHO.....

Last edited by Scott Garner; 01-23-2012 at 08:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #226  
Old 01-23-2012, 08:48 PM
David Atkatz's Avatar
David Atkatz David Atkatz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,811
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper View Post
Could you please post a larger scan? 300 dpi perhaps.

Sorry. This is the best I have right now.
Reply With Quote
  #227  
Old 01-23-2012, 09:39 PM
henson1855 henson1855 is offline
Mike Henson
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 104
Default

No offense taken Scott,it is not my intention to try to fool anyone.
Reply With Quote
  #228  
Old 01-23-2012, 10:00 PM
baseballart's Avatar
baseballart baseballart is offline
Max Weder
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 1,131
Default

I'd be very surprised if the various licensing agencies for the estates of the ball players didn't take a dim view of any unauthorized replication
__________________
Max Weder www.flickr.com/photos/baseballart for baseball art, books, ephemera, and cards and Twitter @maxweder
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rensselaer, NY "Albany" High School Base Ball Team 1901?? smokelessjoe Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 1 09-16-2011 01:12 PM
1925 Yankees Team Signed ball with Babe Ruth (JSA) from Nov B/S/T tread Archive Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 0 11-06-2008 09:52 AM
1923 Pirates signed team ball Archive Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 0 08-24-2008 12:30 PM
1946 Yankees Ball Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 02-10-2008 06:18 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:27 PM.


ebay GSB