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  #11  
Old 03-26-2008, 01:58 PM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: Jon Canfield

No - unfortunately dating cigarette packs is not an exact science. If you can get to the right factory, state and district codes, with a proper revenue stamp with the proper overprint - you can get close. However, at the end of the day, you may open up your sweet caporal pack and find a NM-MT tuna from the fish series; not that Wagner you were banking on.

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  #12  
Old 03-26-2008, 01:59 PM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: Dave Kelley

I have no idea if these pictures will come through....but here goes...I purchased this pack in 2004 and opened it shortly thereafter...I always wondered why this forum seemed to think it was impossible for a pack like this to contain a card...BECAUSE upon opening it, THERE WAS A CARD!!!!! Maybe it is time to re-think what all the "experts" deem as the gospel truth. Most of you guy's have forgotten more than I will ever know about the history of unopened packs...I have purchased 8 unopened packs of various types, and opened them all (I know that makes some of you cringe). This was the ONLY time I ever opened a pack with a card...in fact I have thrown the cigarettes and tobacco away from all the packs that did not contain a card, so that the packs could never be re-sold under suspicious circumstances. I do not collect nor have I EVER purchased a T206 card from any source. There will be some people here who know that I have traditionally collected T210 cards (having sold 2 Stengels and more than 300 as a lot)...as well as various high end Shoeless JJ memorabilia. I love the thrill of opening "unopened" packs and as a collector that has well over $100,000 in various items...I would, in no way , EVER introduce material into the collecting world that I did not KNOW was 100% authentic!!!!!!


Photobucket



resized scans

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  #13  
Old 03-26-2008, 02:11 PM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Dave,

Thanks for posting those pictures. I spoke with Rob this morning and I was going to give you a call later this evening. Unfortunately, I have been busy at work and unable to call now and I also contacted some of my contacts in the cigarette world (who do not collect baseball related memorabilia) to get everything in order before speaking with you. Rob informed me that you are a very upstanding individual and very trustworthy.

That all being said, here is some information of use:

According to Springer's Handbook of North American Cinderella Stamps (4th edition):

Series of 1910, tax rate $1.25 per M
TA84 through TA90
issued stamps for 5; 8; 10; 15; 20; 50; 100 cigarettes

The author added the following: "The editor will appreciate hearing of any cigarette varieties not listed in this catalogue."

A stamp for 12 cigarettes first listed as Series of 1917.

As you may or may not be aware, Springer's is a bible for revenue stamp collectors. There were 10+ editions published over many decades.

So, your experience brings up an interesting question. I am almost 100% positive a 12 count cigarette pack was not manufactured before 1917. If that is the case, it begs the question as to how a T-206 got into yours. I am, in no way, questioning your integrity. As I stated above, Rob had nothing but praise for you. However, finding a card in that pack goes against what is currently known information for that time period and those revenue stamps. As a collector who likes to focus on cigarette packs and memorabilia, I find this situation of great interest.

It seems to me there are a couple of possibilities:

1.) It may be that Springers is incorrect and the Series of 1910 also had 12 cigarette configurations (however this information has not yet been known).

2.) It may be that Piedmont had a huge stock of of cards left over and continued inserting them into packs beyond the 1909-11 date.

3.) It could be that someone tampered with your pack before it was purchased (as there were rumors of this being done).

4.) There could be other scenarios I have not yet thought of.

Regardless, if there has been any misconception of me questioning your trustworthiness, etc - I can assure you I am not.

Lastly, here is a scan from Springers:

Photobucket

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  #14  
Old 03-26-2008, 02:18 PM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: Matt

Is there any possibility that even though the T206s where made in 1909-11, they were distributed in packs in years after that?

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  #15  
Old 03-26-2008, 05:13 PM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: Dave Kelley

Jon...Thank you for the kind words and sharing more information as to the background regarding your knowledge (belief). I can not argue with what has been cited in the publication shown, but I also can not know for certain that this is ALL of the facts. I KNOW FOR A FACT that this pack which was graded as unopened WAS in every way UNOPENED at the time of my removing it from the GAI enclosure (keep in mind that the paper encompassing the pack was (is) extremely fragile to the touch). Could someone have removed all packaging and inserted a card....NO WAY. Have there been people to do this with other NON graded items...ABSOLUTELY. In fact I have shared with this board on several occasions who to stay away from. Jon, your assistance in further research regarding this is welcome...and I will tell you what I told Rob....money was NOT my initial motive in offering this thru REA, but instead, I wanted someone else to share in the experience of finding a card as they did 90+ years ago. I told Rob he is welcome to give whatever money it brings to the charity of his choice...I was attempting to share a wonderful moment with other collectors, instead I seem to have opened a can of worms (no pun intended).

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  #16  
Old 03-26-2008, 05:25 PM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: 1880nonsports

please. I'm heading out to torture myself with Yoga and then a few hours of "spades" with the boys. I REALLY think this line of exploration is IMPORTANT. I don't think anyone is suggesting that YOU didn't actually pull a card from the pack.
Jon - when I get home from cards I'll try an email...

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  #17  
Old 03-26-2008, 07:04 PM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: Richard Dwyer

I was wrong to suggest that the tax stamp had a strong possibility of having a T206 card in the box. According to Robert Forbes book, Sweet Caporal, Piedmont, & Sovereign all came from the same factory, district, & state in 1910. So that tax stamp could have either had a T206 or Fish Series, or maybe something else.

I do have an Old Mill box with overprinting of Factory 25, 2nd. District VA with a date of June 12th. 1911. The only other cards issued by Old Mill were T16, T42, & T80 according to Robert Forbes book on American Tobacco Cards. T16 had NONE for factory. T42's were issued late 1910 and early 1911. T80's were only issued with Factory 30. With the June date, I would assume only a T206 could have been in this box. (Wish it was unopened!) And more specifically, a Portrait or Southern League card, since they distributed these only in 1911 with Old Mill. Let me know if you know something else I don't.

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  #18  
Old 03-26-2008, 08:02 PM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: J Hull

Well, I started all this, so I feel like I should add that my motivation in starting was to raise the issue that if this pack did indeed have a T206 in it, and I believe Dave (Hi Dave) when he says it did, then it raises some, I think, important and interesting questions about how and when T206s were distributed. Because everyone, everyone, has always thought T206s were printed and distributed from 1909 to 1911. This package of cigarettes could not have been manufactured and released from the warehouse and given a tax stamp until at least 1917. Whatever the explanation is for that, it seems a significant piece of new knowledge about this very well-studied set of tobacco cards.

Jamie

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  #19  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:16 AM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: Jerry Spillman


I was skeptical about this GAI 12 Piedmont cigarette pack having an insert card when it was purchased in 2004. I wrote to the buyer to verify that there was infact a card in the pack he purchased. He kindly obliged me by sending me the series of scans shown below on June 7, 2004.

These scans that show a step by step sequence of opening the GAI slab then opening the pack. There was a 1909-1911 T206 card! A T206 in the wrong pack and with the wrong (non-dated) stamp for that period. Even the condition of the tax stamp alone was too perfect. Stamps that wrap around the ends of the cigarette packs always rip when they are opened. Strange - but there is was.

How can this be possible? Could GAI have slabbed a carefully reworked pack?






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  #20  
Old 03-27-2008, 10:31 AM
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Default REA Lot 319 (Piedmont Cigarette Pack)

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Jerry - thanks for posting the scans. I assume you are the original seller of the pack and this pack you posted is one in the same?

Also, Dave, if you would be willing to speak with me over the phone, I'd like to call you. Again, I want your permission first before doing so. Thanks!

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