Shill Bidding defined

[Bram99]

I have a question. I was reading this article on Sportscard Radio site (never heard of this before a link was put up a few days ago on Net54) and they quoted PWCC's Betsy on her definition of shill bidding. The quote is copied below but it implies that one can bid on their own card at auction and it is not shill bidding as long as they intend to go through with the purchase. That seems to me to be an extremely lax standard for shill bidding. I always thought that if one put an item up for auction and ran the bids up themselves, that is shill bidding. Is there a common understanding in the hobby or in an auction setting at large?


Sports Card Radio was provided data of a recent 225 card PSA submission submitted by, or on the behalf of, Moser.

135 of those cards were placed in the PWCC Marketplace 2019 Premium Auction #3.

An eBay account associated with Moser, whitman111, placed a bid on 31 of the 135 cards submitted, resulting in two winning bids.

"I don’t know the eBay user IDs of our clients in general, but folks have connected that person (Moser) with that user ID," says PWCC Betsy Huigens.

Despite several inquires, PWCC would not disclose if Moser was the consigner of the 135 cards.

PWCC Betsy Huigens, however, did add, "It is worth mentioning that in our definition, a 'shill bid' is a bid placed in falsehood without intention of being honored. Shill bidding is something we monitor and manage carefully and we don’t have any experience of shill bidding as you describe tied to this person (Moser)."

The relationship between PWCC and Moser appears to span many years.

[Arazi4442]

I wouldn't put too much thought into an interview like that. In hindsight, it seems pretty obvious that quotes like that about shill bidding, new market tenants, etc. were all just PWCCs attempt to limit the damage from the giant crap storm they probably saw coming.

"Nothing to see here, we posted rules for "acceptable" shill bidding and restoration vs. conservation like days before all our misdeeds were public."

$c0tt Cl1nt0n

[swarmee]

I believe it is legal in *some* states, with prior notification to other bidders that it can happen. As in, some auction companies have it in their terms of service (Heritage?) that the auctioneer can bid on behalf of consignors or members can bid on their own consignments.

It is not legal according to eBay terms of service, to my knowledge. eBay is also a worldwide auctionhouse, so whatever Betsy says that might apply in Oregon likely does not apply to eBay at large.

Most auction bidders would say that Betsy's definition doesn't meet the smell test. Edit: Basically, her definition allows the pushing of bids leading to market manipulation.

[silvor]

I found this about shill bidding...

https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpr...shill-bidding/


What shill bidding involves is bidding without the genuine intent to purchase, and rather with the intent to ensure price protection for the seller...

[perezfan]

And just how can PWCC determine the "intent" of the shill bidder? That's such complete BS. Imagine how many prices have been illegally driven up by shills that had the exact opposite intent. It is not something that Betsy can even begin to monitor, and not something that should be allowed.

Do you think the FBI was concerned with "shiller intent" when they came down on Mastro? Hopefully they step in promptly and stop this fiasco.

Two questions for Betsy, who is hopefully reading this...

1. Which shill bids were placed with intent to purchase, and which were not? If you need to hire a full-time admin to research and classify the thousands of shill bids placed over the years, I'll do it for minimum wage (and will supply the answers by the winter of 2025). If you are a free woman, we can go over the results together, line by line.

2. Which division of law enforcement are you working with again? Since you are the ones who've been victimized, please supply the FBI with ALL the facts. We want to be sure the proper people are jailed.

[japhi]

I’m prob the outlier but I have no issue with a consignor bidding in their own items if they are forced by the auction house to close on the sale. In the case of a trad auction house like Heritage that’s a big price to pay, with the juice its a pretty big risk. With Ebay and PWCC the consignment fees are quite a bit less so you only pay on those, the auction house keeps the cards and they hit the next auction, presumably to close at a new high. I think that is the PWCC angle - he was never interested in limiting consignors bidding on their own cards, he just needs the next big price and consignors to actually close on the sale. For a guy like Moser that is altering and selling multiple copies of the same cards, it makes sense to buy your own card a few times every auction to keep prices inflated. He likely has a sweetheart deal, so it’s really no big deal. PWCC win, a new high is set, or a low sale avoided and the card hits a future auction and prices go uppa uppa uppa.

It’s a huge racket, and this peak behind the curtain is fascinating. Moser is just one guy, there are likely multiple guys doing similar and when you consider the relatively small size of the card market it explains the crazy growth, and why guys like me that have no inside access consign heavily traded cards - HOF high grade rookies - and get middling results

[perezfan]

I guess I have a third question then, as well...

Since eBay allows you to place a reserve on any card, why not just do it legally and above board? Why is PWCC's strategy to make provisions/excuses for illegal shilling after the fact?

You may want to take a very close look at the College Admissions Scandal currently going on...

Felicity Huffman came clean and confessed, admitting GUILT and REMORSE. Yet Lori Loughlin maintains her innocence (despite undeniable proof to the contrary) and is utilizing PWCC's tactic in the hope of being let off the hook.

Let's see who's sentence is more harsh. Just come clean for the sake of the hobby (and for yourself). It will have a positive outcome and a cleansing effect!

[joshuanip]

What if you consigned a $10,000 card, but the auction was ending and the highest bid was $1,000. Most auction houses would allow you to withdraw the lot, but let’s say that was not an option.

Personally, if my consignment realized 10% or even 20% below last sale, I would be disappointed, but wouldn’t shill it because that is market. Win some lose some.

But in the case where the audience is not appreciating the card and there is an extreme discount 50+%, as in the example above, which may be caused for some reason outside of market factors, say a hobby ban from an auction house causing artificial depression of bid activity, and the discount to market is egregious enough where I would want to buy it back, then I would bid on my own card with the full intention of buying it back and paying the nominal consignment fee to get my card back.

May not be popular opinion but being honest.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

What if you consigned a $10,000 card, but the auction was ending and the highest bid was $1,000. Most auction houses would allow you to withdraw the lot, but let’s say that was not an option.

Personally, if my consignment realized 10% or even 20% below last sale, I would be disappointed, but wouldn’t shill it because that is market. Win some lose some.

But in the case where the audience is not appreciating the card and there is an extreme discount 50+%, as in the example above, which may be caused for some reason outside of market factors, say a hobby ban from an auction house causing artificial depression of bid activity, and the discount to market is egregious enough where I would want to buy it back, then I would bid on my own card with the full intention of buying it back and paying the nominal consignment fee to get my card back.

May not be popular opinion but being honest.

That is not shilling. My company has a policy against it. But it's not even remotely illegal.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

What if you consigned a $10,000 card, but the auction was ending and the highest bid was $1,000. Most auction houses would allow you to withdraw the lot, but let’s say that was not an option.

Personally, if my consignment realized 10% or even 20% below last sale, I would be disappointed, but wouldn’t shill it because that is market. Win some lose some.

But in the case where the audience is not appreciating the card and there is an extreme discount 50+%, as in the example above, which may be caused for some reason outside of market factors, say a hobby ban from an auction house causing artificial depression of bid activity, and the discount to market is egregious enough where I would want to buy it back, then I would bid on my own card with the full intention of buying it back and paying the nominal consignment fee to get my card back.

May not be popular opinion but being honest.

Just pick an Auction House that allows set reserves (most do), or use eBay (which utilizes reserves as well). Problem solved.

[Leon]

Nothing ebay says makes it legal or illegal. That would be called a policy, not law..

Originally Posted by swarmee

I believe it is legal in *some* states, with prior notification to other bidders that it can happen. As in, some auction companies have it in their terms of service (Heritage?) that the auctioneer can bid on behalf of consignors or members can bid on their own consignments.

It is not legal according to eBay terms of service, to my knowledge. eBay is also a worldwide auctionhouse, so whatever Betsy says that might apply in Oregon likely does not apply to eBay at large.

Most auction bidders would say that Betsy's definition doesn't meet the smell test. Edit: Basically, her definition allows the pushing of bids leading to market manipulation.

[Gradedcardman]

I thought the rule of thumb for a collector is bid until its too high for you and then stop. I know I was bid up a many a time on T206 PD 42 when I stupidly advertised I was collecting that subset. I still stopped bidding on what I needed when I thought it got out of hand. Hell, the last card I needed for the run I was fully taken advantage of but I still paid that particular price to finish the subset.

Buyer beware and buyer be smart

[bnorth]

I really get all the arguments on both sides. Basically honest people don't do it and dishonest people say "but it isn't illegal". IMHO there is NOT a single reason that the owner of an item or the consignor should be placing bids on the item(s). Every excuse I have ever seen was complete BS. Plain and simple it is used to manipulate the price of the item and nothing else.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nothing ebay says makes it legal or illegal. That would be called a policy, not law..

As far as I know, Ebay policy tends to follow what's law in California, or in some other more restrictive location if it becomes a requirement for doing business there.
For instance there's a whole bunch of stuff from WWII that is fine here, but not fine without disclaimers in Germany. To avoid problems, they very readily pull that stuff. A friend had a marlin arms matchbook showing a GI trampling a Nazi flag, propaganda, but not pro Nazi. They pulled it and explained someone had complained about the swastika. Meanwhile he'd gotten a very nice off-ebay offer for it from the guy who had been the high bidder.

[Fballguy]

Let's not be stupid. Everyone knows the definition of shill bidding. We're not redefining it in 2019. If you're worried about not getting the price you want, set a reserve. Or better yet...Just sell it, don't auction it.

[Leon]

My comment was meant to address the legality of shill bidding on ehay. I have never done it there or anywhere, but my guess is, ebay has to follow the law just like everyone else. If it is against the law then it is against the law on ebay or otherwise. If it isn't against the law, then it won't be against the law on ebay, and no internet peanut gallery comments (not aimed at you, or anyone in particular, Steve) will make it true. It will be against their policy not illegal (I guess it could be "ebay-illegal"). Ebay is working on getting bid retractors addressed and I hope they ramp up efforts to stop shilling but it seems almost impossible.
I think shilling sucks big time. O

Originally Posted by steve B

As far as I know, Ebay policy tends to follow what's law in California, or in some other more restrictive location if it becomes a requirement for doing business there.
For instance there's a whole bunch of stuff from WWII that is fine here, but not fine without disclaimers in Germany. To avoid problems, they very readily pull that stuff. A friend had a marlin arms matchbook showing a GI trampling a Nazi flag, propaganda, but not pro Nazi. They pulled it and explained someone had complained about the swastika. Meanwhile he'd gotten a very nice off-ebay offer for it from the guy who had been the high bidder.

[ajquigs]

I had the same reaction.
I thought I recalled a different standard being stated by PWCC in the past and I found this 2015 post from Brent.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...errerid=617072

Policing Bidders:
On the topic of bid behavior it’s particularly frustrating to be accused of auction manipulation when I actually feel we are working to improve bidder behavior more than anyone else. It's impossible to watch every auction, but we police the bid as much as we can and have blocked more bidder ids for bad behavior than anyone else I know. As our company has matured we have had various policies come and go, some of which have proven more intelligent than others. For example one program I regret most was from 2009/2010 when we allowed consignors to place a single ‘reserve bid’ on a consigned lot if they received approval from us. This sort of thing was more-or-less accepted back in 2009 and we didn't think anything of it at the time (hidden reserves are still part of the hobby with many auction houses). In hindsight this wasn’t a smart program to have engaged in because it opened the door to abuse. We made a mistake offering this as a service and ended it in 2010. We certainly didn’t want to hurt the hobby and we have not offered this option for over 5 years. This is just an example of where we admit to being imperfect and we sincerely hope folks don’t hold this against us. Every business goes through a maturation and we continue to mature alongside the hobby at large.

[Republicaninmass]

Since every time he has made a posted it was in defense of so ething he already did, I believe this was in reaction to possibky uncovering pwcc_auctions was winning auctions from Pre_war_card_collector

[Dpeck100]

I don't know who all reads CU but I brought to the boards attention that the shill snipe bid was very common and identified it happening in PWCC auctions.

Because you can win your own item perhaps now it makes more sense.

Snipe bidding is loved but the shill's have joined that team and are using other methods than just the typical bump bidding.

They use the shill snipe to create the true hidden reserve and to stick it to the nuclear snipe bids.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Leon

My comment was meant to address the legality of shill bidding on ehay. I have never done it there or anywhere, but my guess is, ebay has to follow the law just like everyone else. If it is against the law then it is against the law on ebay or otherwise. If it isn't against the law, then it won't be against the law on ebay, and no internet peanut gallery comments (not aimed at you, or anyone in particular, Steve) will make it true. It will be against their policy not illegal (I guess it could be "ebay-illegal"). Ebay is working on getting bid retractors addressed and I hope they ramp up efforts to stop shilling but it seems almost impossible.
I think shilling sucks big time. O

I totally missed clarity on my post.

Ebay being a California company tends to have their policies aligned with the laws in California. Which makes things complicated for everyone, because what's illegal shilling in one state may not be in another. It is true that Ebay makes no laws, just follows them.
My friend also did a lot of reloading equipment, but would get stuff he wasn't allowed to put on ebay, since while it was ok here in Mass, it was banned in California.

I can sort of see if someone is a dealer/auctioneer in a state that allows what we'd all consider shill bidding they might not know that it isn't allowed somewhere else.