Card doctoring...

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Define never be detectable. By any means whatsoever? Then I will fight the question, because there is very little if anything that couldn't be detected with sophisticated enough equipment. I would prefer that the qualification be assume the card nonetheless gets slabbed by ordinary review, or something like that.

++This. Where there is a will....

Cardstock is made from pulp, which comes from trees. If, for example, you examined two 1939 Dimaggio cards, one altered and one unaltered, under intense magnification, I can only assume that the DNA of the chemically altered card would leave some sort of fingerprint. You wouldn't even have to take the cards out of the slab.

The day of reckoning is coming for slabbed altered cards. When a credible Forth Party Grader comes along to "out" these slabed altered cards, the game is over. The real question is will anyone care.

I think the poll question should be this: If there were a foresnic cardstock lab that could determine if your slabbed vintage card was altered, would you pay to have it re-certified?

[glynparson]

David actually has been trained in this area. Arguing with someone who is actually an expert in this field shows how little you know on the subject. Coming on here and arguing with false information against someone who actually knows what they are doing shows you to be a fool. David may be to nice to point this out I am not.

The Mastro statement about every prewar 7 or better being altered is complete BS. He was trying to justify his greed. Are many, hell yeah, is everyone of them? Absolutely not.

Every company has made errors saying I use a or b company so i know all my cards aren't altered is also a statement that makes one look the fool. Are some better than others? Absolutely they are, but they are all run by humans therefore they are all going to make mistakes sometimes.

My suggestion is go out to shows and hang on boards talk to people get educated about the hobby. There are a lot of honest good hard working people in this hobby. There is also a lot of scum. It really isn't hidden as well as some make it out to be.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

David actually has been trained in this area. Arguing with someone who is actually an expert in this field shows how little you know on the subject. Coming on here and arguing with false information against someone who actually knows what they are doing shows you to be a fool. David may be to nice to point this out I am not.

The Mastro statement about every prewar 7 or better being altered is complete BS. He was trying to justify his greed. Are many, hell yeah, is everyone of them? Absolutely not.

Every company has made errors saying I use a or b company so i know all my cards aren't altered is also a statement that makes one look the fool. Are some better than others? Absolutely they are, but they are all run by humans therefore they are all going to make mistakes sometimes.

My suggestion is go out to shows and hang on boards talk to people get educated about the hobby. There are a lot of honest good hard working people in this hobby. There is also a lot of scum. It really isn't hidden as well as some make it out to be.

Two thoughts. One, I hope that we are only talking about mistakes and nothing worse. I wonder sometimes. Two, it's hidden a lot better in this day and age where internet sales dominate than it was when it was a show and shop and phone business.

[drcy]

People were nice in their debate. I wasn't offended.

However, as someone trained in museum sciences, I can tell you that people here would be amazed at the advanced science that is used in examining art and artifacts. There are instruments that examine the very molecular structure of material using x-rays, gamma rays and other radiation, and can not only identify what chemicals and substances are in it but their exact concentrations. They can not only identify a diamond, but, from the chemical structure, tell you where the diamond originated from.

My research areas and expertise are in authenticity, not condition or grading. However, many forgeries in art and artifacts involve alterations-- everything making a common print into a rare variation to reconfiguring an ancient vase--, so identifying later added material, such as when rebuilding the corners of a trading card, is an integral part knowledge of someone in the area.

If you want to read about the area: Authenticating Art and Artifacts: An Introduction to Methods and Issues

Interestingly, the sports memorabilia hobby does not use many of the advanced methods used by museums. But for a $9.99 holiday special for a one minute look at your 1957 Topps, that's not to be expected. However, all the looking at scans, researching history and finding issue dates that is done on this board is all good stuff. Many collectors are legitimate historians and experts on their particular cards. As I say in the book, a veteran collector can often identify something as a reproduction before the university nuclear physicist can plug in his x-ray spectrometer.

[steve B]

Not all cardstock is made from wood pulp. T206s and many other sets of that era are on cardstock that's probably cotton and linen fibers. It's also pretty close to modern acid free cardstock, magazine backing boards are very close. (But not the same thickness, so don't even think about it...)

DNA can be seen, but the process isn't simply sticking it in a microscope.


And it can't be seen all that well.
Plus, the pulp could have bits of multiple trees, or other plants. An old papermakers trick if the pulp was too watery was to throw in a bale of straw. That would absorb water as it got ground up in the pulp mixer.

Originally Posted by Beastmode

++This. Where there is a will....

Cardstock is made from pulp, which comes from trees. If, for example, you examined two 1939 Dimaggio cards, one altered and one unaltered, under intense magnification, I can only assume that the DNA of the chemically altered card would leave some sort of fingerprint. You wouldn't even have to take the cards out of the slab.

The day of reckoning is coming for slabbed altered cards. When a credible https://www.newscientist.com/article...rst-time/Forth Party Grader comes along to "out" these slabed altered cards, the game is over. The real question is will anyone care.

I think the poll question should be this: If there were a foresnic cardstock lab that could determine if your slabbed vintage card was altered, would you pay to have it re-certified?