Sovereign 350 Apple Green Backs Question

[BleedinBlue]

To all you T206 experts...


A quick question on the Sovereign 350 Apple Green Backs. If a card is found with an Apple Green back, does that mean it is not found with the Standard Dark Green Sovereign 350 back? Or, could a card be found both with the Apple Green 350 and the Dark Green 350 back? From the discussion it's not clear to me whether it's an either/or situation or are both possible.

I'm just getting around to looking at my Sovereign 350 cards and updating my master set list. I definately have 2 of the Apple Green cards (Evers Chicago and Rucker throwing) and based on Ted's lists I should have a third (Murphy Batting). I only have 5 of the Soveriegn 350 cards with Ames Portrait definately the Darker Green. Kleinow w/bat should be Dark as well. I need to check the Murphy and Kleinow tonight when I get home.

Thanks in advance,

Brian

[tedzan]

Here goes as succinctly as I can, so stay with me. Why American Litho. printed a series of 66 cards in their SOVEREIGN issue with this "apple green" ink
is a mystery. What is not a mystery is why these 66 subjects were selected.

Now, 100 years later, this subtle change in green color reveals to us that American Litho. selected these 66 subjects from the 183 Major Leaguers in the
350 series to continue printing them with 460 series backs (possibly due to the popularity of these ballplayers). Furthermore, the fact that the Sovereign
backs on these cards are not identified as "350-460 Subjects" (as Piedmont and Sweet Caporal backs are) suggests to us that this was done in the initial
planning stage of their 350/460 series cards (circa Summer 1910).

Some of the HOFer's in this series..................................



..................apple green backs

..................normal green back


......350 Series common............................\/........................................Some more HOFer's in this series........................................\/





FURTHERMORE..........

Three of these cards (Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls, and Bob Rhoades) were never printed with 460 backs since their Major League careers ended prior to the
460 series press runs. Red Kleinow (NY) and Frank Smith (Chicago) were not printed as 350/460 cards since they were in transition [both being traded to
Boston (AL) prior to 460 printing]. Supporting evidence of this theory is that these 5 subjects do not exist with the AB 350 (frame) back. Which of course,
if they did, would contradict this entire premise....since the AB 350 (frame) back is strictly found with 350-only cards.

Subsequently, these exact cards of Red Kleinow and Frank Smith were printed with a variety of 460 series backs with their captions reflecting their trades
to Boston . However, the "Boston" versions of Kleinow and Smith were not printed with SOVEREIGN 460 backs.



\/..............................................The intended 5 subjects for the 350/460 series that were not printed with 460 backs..........................................\/





List of apple green backs in the SOVEREIGN set........66 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Joe Doyle (arms over head)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (NY-catching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago-white cap)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

NOTE......These 66 cards are found ONLY with the apple-green colored backs. They were definitely not printed with the darker green backs.


I'm sure that some of you may have questions. Feel free to ask them, if I have not clearly explained this phenomena to you. Or, if you want to know
more details regarding these cards.

Credit goes to Art Martineau & Jim Rivera for first pointing out this color difference to this forum in 2009.
In 2007, I had completed an all-SOVEREIGN set. This enabled me (in 2009) to correlate the cards with the apple-green backs to the 350/460 series
subjects in the T206 set and arrive at this theory.



TED Z

[BleedinBlue]

The note at the bottom clears things up for me.

[fkw]

Great info, thanks for posting Ted

[Vegas-guy]

So is this Kelly the "apple green"? I didn't see it in the list or is it printed with both dark and apple? what one is more "rare" or is there no diff?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Vegas-guy

So is this Kelly the "apple green"? I didn't see it in the list or is it printed with both dark and apple? what one is more "rare" or is there no diff?

Your Kelly has a forest green Sovereign 350 back. That is the only Sovereign back that subject was printed with.

Regarding if one back is more "rare" than the other, you will find more forest green Sovereign 350's on the market than apple green. This is due to the total number of subjects printed with one back versus the other. If you're searching for a specific player you may have a different experience.

[Vegas-guy]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Your Kelly has a forest green Sovereign 350 back. That is the only Sovereign back that subject was printed with.

How many green's are there? How do you tell the diff? I know the dark, but forest and apple look pretty close?

[Abravefan11]

Once you know which subjects were produced in which print groups then you will have a good understanding of which should be found with which color back. That will eliminate any doubt.

Sovereign are some of the most important subsets for understanding the composition of the set at given times. All Sovereign subsets hold a key of some kind to the T206 set.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Vegas-guy

How many green's are there? How do you tell the diff? I know the dark, but forest and apple look pretty close?

Reg

There are 402 different subjects that comprise a complete Sovereign set. Therefore, there are 336 different subjects [402 - 66 (apple-green subjects)] whose
backs were printed with the darker green color.

My experience in collecting these Sovereign cards is that of these 336, some are a normal green color while others are a deep forest green (see below example):



........../\...........Example.........../\


This variance in the normal green coloring could simply be due to aging of the cards.


TED

[packs]

Would this be considered an apple green back?

[BleedinBlue]

Ted,

I'm trying to make sure I have a handle on the sovereign subset. Would a complete master set contain 489 cards? This would include both versions of cards which are available in both 150 and 350 backs.

[HercDriver]

I think there are 489 as well...here's my list:

Take Care,
Geno

T206 Sovereign Backs Collection

Sovereign 150 Back (150 Only Series)

1) Ames (Hands at Chest)
2) G. Brown (Chicago)
3) M. Brown (Cubs on Shirt)
4) Burch (Batting)
5) Donlin (Fielding)
6) L. Doyle (Throwing)
7) Evers (Bat, Cubs on Shirt)
8) Pattee
9) Pelty
10) Powers
11) Reulbach (Glove Shows)

Sovereign 150 Back (150/350 Series)

12) Abbaticchio (Brown Sleeves)
13) Alperman
14) Ames (Portrait)
15) Ball (New York)
16) Bates
17) Beaumont
18) Bell (Hands Above Head)
19) Bender (Portrait)
20) Bergen (Batting)
21) Birmingham
22) Bowerman
23) Bradley (Portrait)
24) Bransfield
25) Bresnahan (Portrait)
26) Bridwell (Portrait, No Cap)
27) M. Brown (Portrait)
28) Camnitz (Arms Folded)
29) Chance (Portrait Red)
30) Chase (Portrait Pink)
31) Chase (White Cap)
32) Chesbro
33) Cicotte
34) F. Clarke (Portrait)
35) F. Clarke (Holding Bat)
36) J.J. Clarke (Cleveland)
37) Cobb (Portrait, Green)
38) Cobb (Bat on Shoulder)
39) Conroy (Fielding)
40) Covaleski
41) Crandall (Portrait, No Cap)
42) Crawford (Throwing)
43) Criger
44) Criss
45) Dahlen (Boston)
46) G. Davis (Chicago)
47) H. Davis (H. on Front)
48) J. Delehanty (Wash)
49) Devlin
50) Donlin (Seated)
51) Donohue
52) Donovan (Portrait)
53) Dooin
54) Doolin
55) Dougherty (Portrait)
56) Durham
57) Elberfeld (NY)
58) Evers (Portrait)
59) Ewing
60) Ferris
61) Flick
62) Ganley
63) Gibson
64) Gilbert
65) Goode
66) Griffith (Portrait)
67) Hahn
68) Hemphill
69) Herzog (New York)
70) B. Hinchman (Cleveland)
71) Isbell
72) Jacklitsch
73) Johnson (Portrait)
74) T. Jones (St. Louis)
75) F. Jones (Portrait)
76) F. Jones (Hands on Hips)
77) T. Jordan (Portrait)
78) Joss (Portrait)
79) Karger
80) Keeler (Portrait)
81) Keeler (Batting)
82) Killian (Pitching)
83) Klienow (With Bat)
84) Kling
85) Konetchy (Glove High)
86) Lajoie (Portrait)
87) Lajoie (Throwing)
88) Lake (New York)
89) Leach (Portrait)
90) Leifield (Pitching)
91) Liebhardt
92) Lindamon
93) Lobert
94) Lumley
95) Magee (Portrait)
96) Manning (Batting)
97) Marquard (Hands at Th)
98) Mathewson (Portrait)
99) Mathewson (White Cap)
100) McGraw (Portrait, No Cap)
101) McGraw (Finger in Air)
102) H. McIntyre (Brooklyn)
103) McQuillan (Ball in Hand)
104) Merkle (Portrait)
105) Mullin (Throwing)
106) Murphy (Throwing)
107) Nicholls
108) Niles
109) Oldring (Fielding)
110) O’Leary (Portrait)
111) Overall (Portrait)
112) Owen
113) Parent
114) Pastorius
115) Powell
116) Richey
117) Rucker (Portrait)
118) Schaefer (Detroit)
119) Schlei (Catching)
120) Schmidt (Throwing)
121) Schulte (Front View)
122) Seymour (Batting)
123) A. Shaw (St. Louis)
124) Sheckard (No Glove)
125) Shipke
126) F. Smith (F on Front)
127) Spade
128) Spencer
129) Stahl (No Glove)
130) Steinfeldt (Portrait)
131) Stone
132) Stovall (Portrait)
133) Sullivan
134) L. Tannehill (L on Front)
135) Tenney
136) Tinker (Portrait)
137) Tinker (Hands on Knees)
138) Turner
139) Waddell (Portrait)
140) Waddell (Throwing)
141) He. Wagner (Bat on Left)
142) Wallace
143) Walsh
144) Weimer
145) D. White (Portrait)
146) Wilhelm (Hands at Chest)
147) Williams
148) Willis (Pittsburg)
149) Wiltse (Portrait, No Cap)
150) C. Young (Portrait)
151) C. Young (Bare Hand)

Sovereign 350 Back (150/350 Series)

152) Abbaticchio (Brown Sleeves)
153) Alperman
154) Ames (Portrait)
155) Bates
156) Bell (Hands Above Head)
157) Bender (Portrait)
158) Birmingham
159) Bresnahan (Portrait)
160) Bridwell (Portrait, No Cap)
161) M. Brown (Portrait)
162) Camnitz (Arms Folded)
163) Chance (Portrait Red)
164) Chase (White Cap)
165) Cicotte
166) F. Clarke (Holding Bat)
167) Cobb (Bat on Shoulder)
168) Crawford (Throwing)
169) Criger
170) Criss
171) G. Davis (Chicago)
172) Devlin
173) Donlin (Seated)
174) Donohue
175) Donovan (Portrait)
176) Dooin
177) Dougherty (Portrait)
178) Elberfeld (NY)
179) Evers (Portrait)
180) Ferris
181) Flick
182) Goode
183) Griffith (Portrait)
184) Isbell
185) Jacklitsch
186) Johnson (Portrait)
187) F. Jones (Portrait)
188) F. Jones (Hands on Hips)
189) Joss (Portrait)
190) Keeler (Batting)
191) Klienow (With Bat)
192) Kling
193) Lajoie (Portrait)
194) Leifield (Pitching)
195) Liebhardt
196) Magee (Portrait)
197) Manning (Batting)
198) Mathewson (Portrait)
199) Mathewson (White Cap)
200) McGraw (Portrait, No Cap)
201) McGraw (Finger in Air)
202) Merkle (Portrait)
203) Murphy (Throwing)
204) Nicholls
205) Niles
206) Oldring (Fielding)
207) O’Leary (Portrait)
208) Parent
209) Schaefer (Detroit)
210) Seymour (Batting)
211) Sheckard (No Glove)
212) Shipke
213) F. Smith (F on Front)
214) Spade
215) Stahl (No Glove)
216) Stone
217) Stovall (Portrait)
218) Sullivan
219) Tenney
222) Tinker (Hands on Knees)
221) Turner
222) Waddell (Portrait)
223) Waddell (Throwing)
224) Wallace
225) Walsh
226) Weimer
227) D. White (Portrait)
228) Willis (Pittsburg)
229) Wiltse (Portrait, No Cap)
230) C. Young (Portrait)
231) C. Young (Bare Hand)

Sovereign 350 Back (350 Only Series)

232) Abbott
233) Anderson
234) Armbruster
235) Arndt
236) Atz
237) J. Barry (Philadelphia)
238) S. Barry (Milwaukee)
239) Batch
240) Beck
241) Beckley
242) Bender (Portrait with Trees)
243) Bescher (Portrait)
244) Blackburne
245) Brain
246) G. Brown (Washington)
247) Burke
248) Burns
249) Bush
250) Butler
251) Byrne
252) Campbell
253) Carr
254) Carrigan
255) Casey
256) Cassidy
257) Chapelle
258) Clancy
259) E. Collins (Philadelphia)
260) J. Collins (Minneapolis)
261) Congalton
262) Cravath
263) Cree
264) Dahlen (Brooklyn)
265) Dineen
266) Donovan (Throwing)
267) Doolan (Fielding)
268) Downey (Fielding)
269) Downs
270) J. Doyle (NY on Front)
271) Dubuc
272) Ja. Dunn (Baltimore)
273) Jo. Dunn (Brooklyn)
274) Dygert
275) Easterley
276) Egan
277) Ferguson
278) Fiene (Portrait)
279) Fiene (Throwing)
280) Flanagan
281) Fromme
282) Gasper
283) P. Graham (Boston)
284) Grimshaw
285) Hall
286) Hallman
287) Hannifan
288) Hartsel
289) H. Hinchman (Toledo)
290) Hoblitzell
291) I. Hoffman (Toledo)
292) S. Hofman
293) D. Howard (Chicago)
294) Howell (Portrait)
295) Huggins (Portrait)
296) Hulswitt
297) Jackson
298) Jennings (Portrait)
299) Kelley
300) Killian (Portrait)
301) Kisinger
302) Kleinow (NY Catching)
303) Knabe
304) Knight (Portrait)
305) Knight (With Bat)
306) Krause (Portrait)
307) Krause (Pitching)
308) Kroh
309) Kruger
310) Lavender
311) Lennox
312) Livingston
313) Malarkey
314) Marquard (Portrait)
315) McCormick
316) McGann
317) McGinley
318) McGinnity
319) McGlynn
320) M. McIntyre (Detroit)
321) Merritt
322) Milligan
323) M. Mitchell (Cincinnati)
324) F. Mitchell (Toronto)
325) Moeller
326) P. Moran (Chicago)
327) H. Moran (Providence)
328) Moriarity
329) Mowrey
330) Myers (Fielding)
331) Nichols
332) Oakes
333) Oberlin
334) O’Brien
335) O’Hara (New York)
336) O’Neil
337) Paskert
338) Perring
339) Pfeister (Seated)
340) Phelan
341) Phelps
342) Pickering
343) Poland
344) Purtell
345) Quillen
346) Quinn
347) Randall
348) Raymond
349) Rhoades (Rt Arm Out)
350) Rhoades (Hand at Chest)
351) Rossman
352) Schmidt (Portrait)
353) Scott
354) H. Shaw (Providence)
355) Slagle
356) F. Smith (White Cap)
357) He. Smith (Buffalo)
358) Speaker
359) Stanage
360) Stephens
361) Strang
362)Street (Portrait)
363) Summers
364) B. Sweeney (Boston)
365) J. Tannehill (Washington)
366) Taylor
367) Thielman
368) Thomas
369) Titus
370) Unglaub
371) Warhop
372) J. White (Buffalo)
373) Wilson
374) Wright
375) I. Young (Minneapolis)
376) Zimmerman

Sovereign 350 Back (350/460 Super Print Series)

377) Chance (Portrait, Yellow)
378) Chase (Portrait, Blue)
379) Chase (Dark Cap)
380) Cobb (Portrait, Red)
381) Evers (Chi. Shirt)
382) Mathewson (Dark Cap)

Sovereign 460 Back (350/460 Super Print Series)

383) Chance (Portrait, Yellow)
384) Chase (Portrait, Blue)
385) Chase (Dark Cap)
386) Cobb (Portrait, Red)
387) Evers (Chi. Shirt)
388) Mathewson (Dark Cap)

Sovereign 350 Back (350/460 Regular Print Series)

389) Ames (Hands Above)
390) Baker
391) Bender (Port, no trees)
392) Berger
393) Bradley (Batting)
394) M. Brown (Chi on shirt)
395) Burch (Fielding)
396) Cobb (Bat off Shoulder)
397) Conroy (With Bat)
398) Crawford (With Bat)
399) Davis (Phil, Davis on Front)
400) Donlin (With Bat)
401) Doolan (Batting)
402) Dougherty (Arm in Air)
403) Downey (Batting)
404) Doyle (With Bat)
405) Elberfeld (Wash, Fielding)
406) Griffith (Batting)
407) Jennings (One Hand Shows)
408) Jennings (Two Hands Show)
409) Johnson (Pitching)
410) T. Jordan (Brook, Batting)
411) Joss (Pitching)
412) Konetchy (Glove Low)
413) Lajoie (With Bat)
414) Lake (St. Louis, No Ball)
415) Leach (Bending Over)
416) Leifield (Batting)
417) Magee (With Bat)
418) Manning (Pitching)
419) H. McIntyre (Brooklyn and Chicago)
420) McQuillan (Batting)
421) Mullin (With Bat)
422) Murphy (Batting)
423) O’Leary (Hands on Knees)
424) Overall (Hand Face High)
425) Pelty (Vertical)
426) Pfeister (Throwing)
427) Reulbach (No Glove)
428) Rucker (Throwing)
429) Seymour (Throwing)
430) Snodgrass (Catching)
431) Stahl (Glove Shows)
432) Steinfeldt (With Bat)
433) Street (Catching)
434) J. Sweeney (New York)
435) Tinker (Bat Off Shoulder)
436) He. Wagner (Bat on Rt)
437) D. White (Pitching)
438) Wilhelm (With Bat)
439) Willetts
440) Willis (With Bat)
441) Willis (Throwing)
442) Wiltse (Pitching)
443) C. Young (Glove Shows)

Sovereign 460 Back (350/460 Regular Print Series)

444) Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves)
445) Ball (Cleveland)
446) Bell (Follow Through)
447) Bergen (Catching)
448) Bescher (Hands in Air)
449) Bridwell (Portrait with Cap)
450) Camnitz (Hands Above)
451) Camnitz (Arm at Side)
452) Chance (Batting)
453) Chase (Holding Trophy)
454) Crandall (Portrait with Cap)
455) Devore
456) Doyle (Portrait)
457) Duffy
458) Ford
459) Frill
460) Gandil
461) Geyer
462) Herzog (Boston)
463) Howell (Hands at Waist)
464) Hummel
465) Lake (Ball in Hand)
466) Latham
467) Marquard (Follow Through)
468) McGraw (Portrait with Cap)
469) McGraw (Glove at Hip)
470) Merkle (Throwing)
471) Meyers
472) Murray (Portrait)
473) Needham
474) Oldring (Batting)
475) Overall (Hands at Waist)
476) Payne
477) Pleffer
478) Schaefer (Washington)
479) Schlei (Portrait)
480) Schlei (Batting)
481) Schulte (Back View)
482) Seymour (Portrait)
483) Sheckard (Glove Shows)
484) H. Smith (Brooklyn)
485) Stovall (Batting)
486) Tannehill (Chicago, No L.)
487) Tinker (Bat On)
488) Wheat
489) Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)

[tedzan]

Let us do the math........there are 402 different subjects in the basic set. We add the 6 SOVEREIGN 460 super-prints for a sub-total of 408.

My records indicate that 81 subjects of the 150/350 series have been confirmed with SOVEREIGN 350 backs; therefore, a grand total = 489
cards.
However, there may be more than 81 subjects with both the 150 and the 350 backs. This is still a work in process.


TED Z

[HercDriver]

I should say, my list is based off of inputs from Ted and others, it's by no means confirmed since I'm just getting started. I also have a T205 list that is based on my confirmations (as well as some that I haven't confirmed). If you want that one, let me know and I'll pass it along...

Take Care,
Geno

[tedzan]

Geno

I have 3 corrections for your .... "Sovereign 350 Back (350 Only Series)" list:

(260) J. Collins (Minneapolis) .... I've never found this card; and, I'm quite certain that Jimmy Collins is a No-Print.

(268) Downey (Fielding) .......... is a No-Print.

(298) Jennings (Portrait) ......... is actually a 150/350 subject that you should list in your "Sovereign 350 Back (150/350 Series)" group.


And, in your .... "Sovereign 350 Back (150/350 Series)"

(179) Evers (Portrait) .............. I have yet to find this card with a SOVEREIGN 350 back; but, it may exist.


Furthermore, this list "Sovereign 350 Back (150/350 Series)" is still a work in progress. More 150/350 series cards
with a SOVEREIGN 350 back may appear.

Otherwise, a great list. And, thanks for posting it.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by packs

Would this be considered an apple green back?

It does not look like an "apple green" back. But, it's hard to tell from your scan.
Who is on the front of this card and what pose ?


TED Z

[packs]

It's a Cobb batt off. Sorry about the scan. I'm going to try to take a better photo tonight.

[tedzan]

Your Cobb (bat off shoulder) is one of the 66 - Sovereign T206's that were printed with an apple green back.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Geno

I'm reprising the corrections I gave you in a prior post in this thread and adding one more for accuracy. I hope you don't mind.


I have 3 corrections and one additional entry for your .... "Sovereign 350 Back (350 Only Series)" list:

ADD ...... Huggins (hands at mouth) to this 350-Only Series list.

(260) J. Collins (Minneapolis) .... I've never found this card; and, I'm quite certain that Jimmy Collins is a No-Print.

(268) Downey (Fielding) .......... is a No-Print.

(298) Jennings (Portrait) ......... is actually a 150/350 subject that you should list in your "Sovereign 350 Back (150/350 Series)" group.


And, in your .... "Sovereign 350 Back (150/350 Series)"

(179) Evers (Portrait) .............. I have yet to find this card with a SOVEREIGN 350 back. Perhaps, some one on this forum has (or has
seen) this Evers with a Sovereign 350 back and will chime in here.


Otherwise, a great list. And, thanks for posting it.

Incidently, the SOVEREIGN "master set" grand total remains the same = 489 cards.

TED Z

[HercDriver]

Thanks for the input, Ted! I'll make the changes when I get a few free minutes. I've been putting most of my time towards refining my T205 Sovereign list, which still has some question marks...

Take Care,
Geno

[tedzan]

Geno

Can you please email me at......

tedzan11@comcast.net


Thanks,

Ted Z