BOOKS/HISTORY/value

[bgar3]

A question on the value of a really nice old classic baseball history book Spink's National Game), combined with the poll on selling removed pages from guides etc, has prompted this personal observation on the "value" of baseball books. I have collected books, not just baseball books for over 40 years, and I believe in, and fully understand that people have different tastes. But one way I value things is by comparing them to what else I could get for the same cost. For example, the Spink book (3-400 dollars), is something I would value highly in comparison to things like 100 framed pages removed from guides, any number of submissions for grading, and 20 or more baseballs signed in squiggles. Throw in some old photos, or letters with content and i would have a difficult choice to make. Make it an inscribed copy of a classic history and I will borrow money to get it. Although this is just my opinion and taste, I would make the argument that books like the Spink book are truly cornerstone "iconic" books and should be worth even more. Every truly great collector i have ever known has had a love for and understanding of, the history of baseball as a common trait. They may collect different things, but the great ones understand and love the history. Even though I do not collect T206's , I get it, because collecting them is to pursue history. For some reason great baseball books are not popular at the moment, on this forum, or in general. However, I feel very confident they will still be sought and collected long after some other current fads have faded. Please take just one minute and think about the History and (and value) a book like the Spink, or Spalding's National Game, or Richter has as a foundation for whatever you collect. I suggest your collection will be better for it. I hope this stimulates some book discussion and we can take more advantage of the expertise of members like Barry and Max and be working together to preserve baseball history, not just make money.

[Runscott]

There are plenty of forum members who have nice vintage book collections.

The reason we don't have a lot of book discussions is that this is a card and collectibles forum - to most here, books are useful only as much as their value for providing information related to cards and collectibles, or their ability to provide dollars to fill pockets or fuel the building of collections. If this were a sports book collectors forum, the results you saw in Leon's poll would be totally different.

I used to look for good deals on expensive books and purchase accordingly. The problem was that I always ended up needing to sell some of them, the result being that I no longer had the book and the information it contained. I began replacing some of the more expensive copies with inexpensive modern reprints, especially if there were no photographs in the original, or the reprint photos sufficed. Spalding's 'National Game' is a perfect example, as is the huge-format 1911 book that was re-printed a few years ago and is available for under $30 (I can't remember the title, but it has a beautiful litho on the front and maroon backing boards). The early Spalding and Reach Guides that did not contain photos are also good in the reprint versions, but the ones with glossy inserts really can't be replaced. Most of the great coffee table photo books can still be purchased at reasonable prices, and I recommend getting ALL of them.

Max could probably create a really good list of baseball books, along with the quality (or existence) of their reprint versions. Maybe at some point I'll send him what I have and between us we can come up with something that is useful.

[bgar3]

sorry, deleted meant to be pm to runscott

[steve B]

I also collect books, less than my wife, but I still pick up some.

I don't have enough older baseball books. Like so many things I should have picked up a bunch when I was in HS/college and they were usually cheap.

I really like some of the more modern ones, mostly for the baseball stories.

A lot of my stuff is either about collectibles, or is early books about some particular technology, like radio books from before around the mid 1920's or computer books from 60's and 70's or earlier.

Steve B

[aelefson]

I collect them as well, but limit my buying to antique stores, flea markets, and local card shows. I have one dealer who recently sold me some of his early baseball books and I now have the Spalding book, the Anson book, the numbered Boston book, and a few other cool ones. I also have a Spalding guide rebound with Tim Murinane's imprint on the front. I will try to post some pictures over the weekend.

Today I found an 1841 chapbook (Animal Biography by Babcock in New Haven) with a small illustration of three kids (one is holding a bat and appears to be swinging at a ball). This was at a fairly large antique shop, and it was only 20.00. It is now my earliest "baseball" item in my collection.

Overall, I agree that they should be more valuable than they are, but I think the same for old magazines and newspapers with similar content and photos. Especially when compared to astronomical prices for similar pictures on pieces of cardboard (which I also collect).

Alan

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Baseball books certainly have a place in the memorabilia side of this forum and there are some folks with unbelievable collections out there.

Any person wanting to build a library should consider the four volume Baseball Bibliography by Myron Smith which I believe is still available from McFarland. Its' scope is astonishing. Once you get the hang of it you will be able to find out what is out there and then searching abe.books will give you some idea on values though I do think they tend to run higher that most can be found.

I keep a scan of older titles especially if jackets are shown, it gives me an idea as to color and condition. Most older titles I own I place jackets in Brodart covers for protection.

I own around 2,000 baseball volumes but from what I've read on this board, many of our members have much deeper collections with more of the classic early editions. I have spent the last couple of years working on my football books and also use Myron Smith's College and Pro Bibliographies for guidance.

[bgar3]

alan, those are great books, but i am curious about the numbered boston book you mention, could you provide more details? thank you. i love the association copies of things and your murnane fits that area, very nice.

[baseballart]

For those who might think interest in baseball books is dying off, I started a Baseball Books group up on facebook last year. It's now passed 1500 members and counting.

It's not by any means focused on vintage books, but there is certainly lots of interest in those books https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/60231470621/

Most of the classic older baseball books are available in electronic form, or have been reprinted, if you want reading copies.

However, the original editions are as much memorabilia as a Type 1 photo, an RPPC, a pennant, a game or baseball cufflinks (I can't believe I bid on some that recently ended!). As Bruce notes, they are treasures to maintain for the next generation, just as many of the other items we collect are.

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by bgar3

alan, those are great books, but i am curious about the numbered boston book you mention, could you provide more details? .

I'll take a guess and say it's Old Boston Boys and the Games they Played 1907. Can't think of any other early numbered edition with Boston featured.

[baseballart]

Commy





Regular edition with Dj (is a dust jacket a type 5 photo? That might stimulate interest)

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Max could probably create a really good list of baseball books, along with the quality (or existence) of their reprint versions. Maybe at some point I'll send him what I have and between us we can come up with something that is useful.

Scott

I've always been woefully behind in sorting and organizing. At present, I'm also trying to downsize many of my post 1970 and a number pre 1970 titles. So if anyone is in Vancouver (think Alaska cruise) and wants to pick up some titles, give me a shout.

[aelefson]

Max got the title. I think mine is 125, but I will have to check.

[aelefson]

Here is the Murnane (I have a mental block when it comes to spelling his name). I really like association copies too, but I wish this one had notes in it!

Alan

[Runscott]

Alan-please post a scan of the 1841 image!

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[bgar3]

thank you alan and max, i thought that was probably it, but wanted to be sure. love that photo everytime i see it max. if anyone would like to see a letter from james d'wolf lovett, the author of old boston boys about the book and how women used to watch baseball games i can send you a scan. (it will have come from a local library to your email so send me a pm, i will also send the inscription to charles dana gibson, his nephew and illustrator of the book and the famous gibson girls. alan, you probably already know this but murnan changed his name to murnane, i believe to be more american. sabr has a good bio on him. max, a book discussion!

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by baseballart

For those who might think interest in baseball books is dying off, I started a Baseball Books group up on facebook last year. It's now passed 1500 members and counting.

It's not by any means focused on vintage books, but there is certainly lots of interest in those books https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/60231470621/

Most of the classic older baseball books are available in electronic form, or have been reprinted, if you want reading copies.

However, the original editions are as much memorabilia as a Type 1 photo, an RPPC, a pennant, a game or baseball cufflinks (I can't believe I bid on some that recently ended!). As Bruce notes, they are treasures to maintain for the next generation, just as many of the other items we collect are.

I am a member and it is a very cool page.

Jeff

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by baseballart

is a dust jacket a type 5 photo? That might stimulate interest

Careful. With talk like that, you'll have collectors removing dust covers and getting them slabbed...

[Wildfireschulte]

Max - great book display. I love how you have "Bride and the Pennant" by Frank Chance rotated to display the colorful cover. I look at books as more than a great read or source of info - historical books are art when displayed as part of a great collection.

[aelefson]

Scott, here is the chapbook and a close-up scan of the illustration on the front. I am really happy to own it.

Alan

[jpop43]

We too very much enjoy early baseball literature, and although we do not have an abundance of it, I thought I might share with you one of our favorites.

This history of the Boston BBC (copyright 1898) was found at a street fair in NJ about 9 years ago...we simply love it!

Jonathan
www.dugouttreasures.com

[bgar3]

Jonathon, your History of the Boston BBC is a great book. Many people assume because the first numbered page is 3, that it is missing a page, i do not think this is is the case, i have never seen a copy that does not begin at 3 and i have been told that the cover and inside cover account for the other 2 pages, and i think this is supported by the list of advertisements page. If yours is different please let me know. thank you. (also i think it is copyright 1897, if yours is 1898, i might be a later printing which i think would be a new discovery and might have additional material, like the later editions of Spink and Ellard.)

[barrysloate]

Bruce is correct, all copies begin on page 3.

So since I was a baseball book collector for many years, and wrote a well received article on baseball books for VCBC back around 1996, I have of course given a lot of thought as to why baseball book collecting is in decline. I can come up with a few reasons, so here goes:

1) Old time collectors are leaving the hobby, and the new collectors replacing them are gravitating more to cards and not to memorabilia. As much as I hate to say this, the slab is what is keeping this hobby humming. If they slabbed baseball books, more people would collect them. Blasphemy, I know, but sadly true.

2) Collectors simply don't know what is out there and what books are worth. Baseball cards are exhaustively catalogued and priced, and a collector can find out the value of a T206 in just a few moments. But rare baseball books are more exotic, less frequently encountered, and not always easily assessed. Not every collector is up for this challenge.

3) This last one is the toughest, and it's a tad political (sorry folks), but I'll call it the dumbing down of America. Unfortunately, and much to my chagrin, we are living in a society where educated people are often ridiculed and mocked. People who read are considered just a bunch of elitist eggheads, not to be taken seriously. Fewer people read today than ever before, so that has to have some effect on book collecting. This hurts me on many levels, but we'll leave it at that.

I'm sure there are other reasons for the decline, but we have to accept the fact that the hobby has changed since the 1980's and 90's. That's not to say that there still aren't many devoted book collectors out there, but their numbers are fewer.

[murphusa]

I have about 300 baseball books and I haven't read one. To busy to spend that much time on one thing.

[barrysloate]

Not even one? Not all baseball books can be read- many simply have rules or stats, so there is nothing really to read. But some of them are really interesting. I would recommend you try at least one or two.

[Jason19th]

As an active, and younger (36) baseball book collector I think that the main problem is that the rare book people don't understand baseball books and the baseball collectors do not understand the rare book world. As a result there is so much misinformation and a lack of realistic pricing and reasonable availability Let me give an example. One of the books shown below is a book called Uncle Nat which is a children's adventure book published in 1865. The book contains the first extensive fiction about baseball in a great chapter that actually deals with the controversy between the New York and Mass. games and an argument about whether you can "soak" or hit the base runner with the ball to get an out. Its a great books and if more well known I think that a lot of baseball collectors would like a copy. It really only can be bought however outside the hobby in rare book sites (unless your are lucky to find one on ebay) and the rare book sites seem to think its old and its about baseball so it must be worth a mint and they price it at over $2500. Its a rare book and its valuable but not THAT valuable and as a result it sits on the rare book site and never gets into the hobby.

All that said I think that one theme we are missing is that not only do the book give us info on baseball history but also the way that baseball fit into the overall society at a given time. Unlike cards or photos books deal with issue like racism, education, the Red Scare etc. This is why I love them and think that they are undervalued as objects and historical touchstones

Below are a number of books which illustrate this point

In order
1. Earliest and only(?) Spanish Language history of baseball in Mexico
2. Negro in Sports -- a wide ranging history of black sports published in 1939 and 1949 and has the only treatment of the Negro Leagues while the leagues were still in action
3. Great Negro Ball stars -- give extensive histories and pics of all the first generation of black major leaguers
4. Little League Amigos a story of a young players journey from Castro's Cuba to the American little league
5. 20 Years Too Soon by Quincy Troppe -- a self published volume that allows us to see a player that seem to only had a cup of coffee in the majors but was infact a major influence in 3 countries over 40 years
6. McGuffey's reader 1840's -- shows that baseball was part of school lessons from before it was baseball
7. Uncle Nat
8. Boys Own Book 1844 (English Edition) showing that the Knickerbockers really didn't invent much


7.

[barrysloate]

Great post Jason. And when I had my baseball book collection, I did indeed have a copy of Uncle Nat. And it really should sell for $500 or less, even $300 would be a fair price for it. But it does have an early and interesting discussion on baseball. Fiction in general sells for far less than histories, or books on how the game is played.

And unlike cards, which have been exhaustively studied, there is still a lot to learn about some of these early books. That is part of the fun.

[bigtrain]

I, too, love collecting baseball books although I have been thinking of selling some of the newer ones, say from after 1960 or so. Lack of room since I have about 700 titles. This one is still my favorite.

[barrysloate]

That's unbelievable condition for the Mike Kelly book Tom. It was made from very cheap paper, and rarely holds up.

[bigtrain]

Barry,
I still keep a copy of your book article from VCBC on my desk for reference even though its nearly 20 years old. I suspect that many collectors got interested in baseball books through that article. Many thanks.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That's unbelievable condition for the Mike Kelly book Tom. It was made from very cheap paper, and rarely holds up.

The Kelly book does have some professional restoration as you probably know but it is still a beauty.

[baseballart]

Here's a 1889 edition of. The Kelly book

[bigtrain]

Max,
I guess they had problems selling the book at 25 cents and had to drop it to 10?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Barry,
I still keep a copy of your book article from VCBC on my desk for reference even though its nearly 20 years old. I suspect that many collectors got interested in baseball books through that article. Many thanks.

You're welcome Tom. I wrote quite a few articles for VCBC but that one was always my favorite.

[bgar3]

I want to add my thank you to Barry for the article also, and I hope this keeps going. I apologize for not having a working scan to illustrate points, but all the books so far are great. One aspect i would encourage, is to check the books for prior ownership signatures etc, many times I have found that the book was owned by someone involved in baseball in some notable way. My particular interest is in when they annotate the book in some interesting way. if anyone has examples like that, i would love to see them.

[baseballart]

Baseball book collecting can start with the ABCs

[baseballart]

Most early baseball fiction is completely unreadable. However, the covers, and especially the dust jackets, are as beautiful as any card or photo of the era.

The paintings for many book covers were also used in magazines. Here's one example

[bgar3]

max, just sent you a book cover for your opinion. if you did not get it let me know. the ABC is terrific, funny, mine is even worse condition.