Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[tedzan]

............a long time passing............gone to dust bins, everyone............Oh, when will they ever return ?


We have found regular production uncut sheets of E-cards, OBAK's, GOUDEY's, PLAY BALL's, LEAF's, BOWMAN's and TOPPS cards. However, no regular production T206 sheets
have ever been found. This is very mystifying, since we know that Millions of T206's were printed.

Research of the American Lithographic Co. (ALC), that printed most of the Tobacco cards (circa 1909 -1919), reveals that they printed on 19" wide x 33" long cardboard sheets.
Indeed, uncut sheets have been found with American Tobacco (ATC) related items (cigarette packs, etc.) that are 19" x 33". This sheet size can comprise of as many as 144
T206 size cards printed in a 12 x 12 array. ALC printed the front images on these sheets using a 6-color process. The backs of these pre-printed sheets were blank. They were
hung up to allow the ink to dry and then they were stockpiled.

The various Tobacco Factory's in the ATC system would order cards from ALC to insert into their cigarette packs. ALC would print the specific advertising brand and its Factory
number on the backs of the pre-printed sheets. The significance of the exact Factory # was due to Federal law. Circa 1903, a Federal Tax law was established identifying every
tobacco product's Factory. It also required that any associated advertising premium(s) were labelled with the exact Factory #. Then, 1000's of T206's would be shipped from ALC
in NYC to Richmond, VA (Factory #25), Durham, NC (Factory #42), Rochester, NY (Factory #649), Middletown, OH (Factory #6), etc.....or stay in New York City (Factory #30).

Here is a scan of the 12 subjects that were the start of the T206 press runs in the Spring/Summer of 1909. These cards were initially printed with the PIEDMONT and SWEET
CAPORAL brands. The Wagner card was discontinued due to his claim "of not endorsing cigarette smoking". Connie Mack's biography tells us that Connie Mack and Eddie Plank
were strongly "anti-tobacco" and did not want their picture associated with tobacco cards. *


Note....cards are not necessarily in the correct order as they were printed


\................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......... approx. 18 inches .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........../



150-Only Series

PIEDMONT (Factory 25)
12 subjects......All 12 of these cards were most likely "multi-printed" on the first sheet. My conjecture is a format that was 12 cards across a row by "n" number of rows down.
Resulting in a vertically repeated array of each card.

DITTO for SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 25 & 30)


150/350 Series

PIEDMONT (Factory 25)
144 subjects......possibly 3 x 48-card sheets

SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 30)
141 subjects......possibly 3 x 48-card sheets (3 subjects were double-printed)

SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30 overprinted with Factory 649
34 subjects......36-card sheet (Powers and a 2nd subject were double-printed)


Southern Leaguer Series
Brown HINDU back.....34 subjects.....36-card sheet (two subjects were double-printed)

OLD MILL or PIEDMONT 350 backs......48 subjects....48-card sheet.


"350/460" Series
SOVEREIGN......66 subjects......possibly a 72-card sheet (surveys indicate that the 6 Super-Prints were most likely double-printed)


460-Only Series
PIEDMONT (Factory 25) or SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 30)......46 subjects......48-card sheet (Duffy & Ford were double-printed)



Furthermore, the 48 - Major League subjects in the 1910 Coupon set were derived from the pre-printed sheet in the 350 series of the T206 set that included the 6 Super-Prints.
The backs of this 48-card sheet were printed with the "COUPON" brand. **

And, a complete T215 set consists of 96 cards. It was issued in two series. The 1st series of 48 cards were printed in 1910. The 2nd series of 48 cards were printed in 1912.


The breakdown of the sheets with the tougher T206 backs is still a work in progress.


NOTES

* A follow-up post here will provide more information regarding the T206 Eddie Plank and the card of his battery-mate, Mike "Doc" Powers.

** The1910 COUPON cards were printed on sheets of thinner cardboard stock than the regular T206 cards. Apparently, this was done because these cards were not intended
to serve as "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. This "COUPON" brand was a new offering by ATC; and, the cigarettes were packaged in boxes, instead of standard cigarette packs.


FINALLY....The Gretzky T206 PIEDMONT Wagner and the Charlie Conlon PIEDMONT Plank originated from Long Island, NY
I came across some information recently that may explain why this was......and, may also explain why a number of Wagner cards have originated from Long Island.

Stay tuned !


TED Z

a.k.a......T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

T206 Eddie Plank

It's been 2-3 years since I posted my "Plank theory" thread......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t+order&page=6

I haven't been able to discover any new evidence to support my contention that the T206 Plank was yanked due to a conflict with the American Caramel Co.

But, I have discovered that Plank was very much anti-tobacco in any form. And so was his Mgr., Connie Mack. Plank was a low-keyed guy and most likely did
not receive the "fanfare" that Wagner got for having their cards pulled from circulation. Plank's complaint was most likely resolved by a Cease & Desist Order
to ATC.
If so, then a mystery surrounds this situation, since ALC issued Plank again when they printed the SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 cards. But not too many,
as they had to yank Plank cards a 2nd time.


T206 Mike "Doc" Powers

The Powers card has been traditionally classified as a "150-Only" subject. I question this, since this card is found with a SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #649
(overprint) back. This tells us that Powers was designed to be a 150/350 subject. Unfortunately, Mike Powers died from complications of an injury that he suf-
fered at Shibe Park on Opening Day of the 1909 season. This was especially tragic for Eddie Plank since Powers had been his preferred catcher for many years.

Needless to say, ALC did not print any 350 series card of Powers. However, two T206 surveys (18,000+ cards) indicate that Powers' PIEDMONT 150 card and
the SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #649 (overprint) card were both Double-Printed on their respective sheets.


TED Z

a.k.a......T-Rex TEDE

[Ronnie73]

Very intresting research and theorys. I am still hopefull that an uncut sheet will turn up one day.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Thanks for all that valuable information Ted. The question remains....where are the uncut sheets. Almost as intrigueing are the uncovered hoards and collections yet unseen that might contain some answers. You sure are one if not the top gun with 206s . In my meager hunt i will keep you informed of any new info i might uncover.
Many years ago I think i remember Mr. Frank Nagy having uncut strips or panels of them, but i could be wrong. I was dazzled at the time of his page after page after page of 52T mantles. aloha dave

[ScottFandango]

Great research Ted, i admire the detective in you!

Any info on the Doyle hands up?

Shouldn't this card be considered the honus wagner of of the set (only about 12 known examples)

Are we destined to keep the rarity list the same forever or will someday the Doyle be worth more than the Wagner?

I wonder about this often, especially since TPG and pop reports were not available 20 years ago, it seems we have a better idea about TRUE rarities with new information we have at our fingertips....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

Great research Ted, i admire the detective in you!

Any info on the Doyle hands up?

Shouldn't this card be considered the honus wagner of of the set (only about 12 known examples)

Are we destined to keep the rarity list the same forever or will someday the Doyle be worth more than the Wagner?

I wonder about this often, especially since TPG and pop reports were not available 20 years ago, it seems we have a better idea about TRUE rarities with new information we have at our fingertips....

Thanks Scott....I appreciate your kind words.

Pardon me for correcting your number; but, there are only 8 known Joe Doyle error cards. And, as you said....this card is indeed the toughest in the T206 set.
Will it ever sell for more than an equivalently graded Wagner. I don't think so. The Wagner card has been "hyped" up for too many years and will stay on top.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

Nice thread T-Rex.....Doyle will always be tougher but no way does he get to Wagner's cult status and value, imho...

[steve B]

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Lesser points about the technical end of things.

I can't find any way to agree with the sheets being hung up to dry. In a proofing dept yes, but not in production. There just isn't the time. A rough guess based on the possible 370 million Scott Reader proposed as a high production number, 144 cards to a sheet and 5 seconds a sheet to do the hanging equals roughly 89 weeks of labor per color. The way the presses stack sheets in the outfeed area provides a bit of air between sheets and that's all that is required.

The process was more than 6 colors, at least for some printings. The ones not usually recognized are in Italics.
Yellow, black, brown, blue, light blue, dark green, red, pink, Gray/tan
I'm positive about blue/light blue being two individual passes, as well as red/pink. I'm less certain about gray/tan. That one could be part of the brown pass which sometimes is more gray.
Here's the upper right corner of Batch showing blue/light blue clearly.

Steve B

[mkdltn]

There is a color called Buff as well-its the flesh tone.

[Ronnie73]

I agree with Steve that the sheets were not hung. Old presses used air suction to pickup and move the sheets and also to dry them. The inks that were used, would dry quickly. The ink is so thick that a putty knife would have to be used to spread it evenly in the tray that contacts the ink rollers. During use, thinners would have to be added to the ink tray because the ink would dry into one big stickey chunk. If anyone has ever used bondo for autobody, the ink is thicker than that.

[glchen]

Slightly off topic, but most people have said that the Gretzky Wagner is trimmed. I suppose this would mean that it was trimmed from a "jumbo" Wagner rather than sheet cut since uncut sheets don't exist?

And speaking of the "jumbo" cards, would this mean that these were on the top or bottom row of the sheet or just miscut?

[wonkaticket]

"Here is a scan of the 12 subjects that were the start of the T206 press runs in the Spring/Summer of 1909. These cards were initially printed with the PIEDMONT and SWEET
CAPORAL brands. The Wagner card was discontinued due to his claim "of not endorsing cigarette smoking". Connie Mack's biography tells us that Connie Mack and Eddie Plank
were strongly "anti-tobacco" and did not want their picture associated with tobacco cards."

Really Ted? If Wagner was in the first run where is the 150 Sovereign or Hindu Wagner Ted?

A lot of the first series cards are found with other backs as well Hindu, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Cap Wagner cant be found with anything other than handcut Piedmont same goes for Plank.

So I fail to see how Wagner & Plank were in the first runs of T206 if so I'd be looking for a Hindu and Sovereign Plank & Wagner. Unless you are saying that Hindu and Sovereign were printed way later?

BTW love to see your new Magie card when you can.

John

[tedzan]

Hey John

The PIEDMONT brand was ATC's "flagship" tobacco product. Followed by the SWEET CAPORAL brand. Therefore, these original 12 subjects
were first printed with these two advertising brands. Actually three backs, since at that point in time SWEET CAPORAL production was split
between two Factory's (#25 and #30).

The Wagner "controversy" occurred Spring/Summer of 1909 when the first SWEET CAPORAL cards were in circulation and American Litho.
removed his card very quickly.

Now, the yanking of the Plank most likely occurred concurrently with the removal of the Wagner card for either of the following reasons......

1....It is a documented fact that Eddie Plank was anti-tobacco. Most likely he followed Wagner's actions and informed ATC to remove his
card from circulation. Eddie was a low-keyed guy and did not receive the fanfare that Wagner got. A simple "cease & desist" order accom-
plished this back in those days.

2....Or, the Plank cards were simply discarded along with the Wagner's when they were discarded. I base this scenario on the statement that
was made when the "Gretzy Wagner" was being shopped around in the mid-1980's at the Willow Grove show......that it originally was cut from
a panel of which the Plank card was adjacent to it. This info went "underground" for many years. But, it recently was revealed when Charlie
Conlon's PIEDMONT Plank surfaced in the REA auction.

In any event, the brown HINDU and SOVEREIGN press runs were subsequent to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL press runs. And, by then
the situation regarding Wagner (and perhaps Plank) was over and done with....they were discontinued.

The HINDU tobacco products were produced at Factory #649 in Rochester, NY. ATC refurbished and modernized the old Kimball plant and this
plant was in operation in the Summer of 1909.


T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, the 19x33 sheets size makes a lot more sense than the 12x 18 I'd considered. There are a few things that don't entirely make sense to me if I assume they're all from one sheet.

The first bit is a gap in my knowledge. The superset spreadsheet shows 8 of this group as being available but unconfirmed with El Principe. and 4 as not available. Is this old data, an error, or was there a reason? All are unconfirmed, so I'd think it was merely an error?

How do you account for Magie? That card fits the pattern of the 150 only series. a bit better than Plank.
I'm still picturing multiple sheets one with wagner withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs the other with Magie withdrawn and replaced with Brown Cubs. Maybe only two sheets.

The top 150 would seem to support this, as of the entire group the only one outside the top 150 is Brown Cubs.

Plank is a bit of a puzzle, but I think the bit of packing log while it's for hindu on one side and some other unknown cards on the backgives a hint. It specifically states on the back the packing is for "other than Phila territory" or sweet caporal backs "for Phila territory"
It bears some further consideration that perhaps Plank was either included or excluded from the Philadelphia area packs, or possibly that Powers with the 649OP was included either specially for Philadelphia or as a replacement for Plank. Although the dates don't make much sense unless Powers was included as a tribute.
The other plus to that theory is that as a 150/350 card a Plank could have snuck out due to back stock getting the Piedmont 350 backs.

Steve B

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[Runscott]

edited: you've got your hands full. I'll send you an email

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey John

The PIEDMONT brand was ATC's "flagship" tobacco product. Followed by the SWEET CAPORAL brand. Therefore, these original 12 subjects
were first printed with these two advertising brands. Actually three backs, since at that point in time SWEET CAPORAL production was split
between two Factory's (#25 and #30).

The Wagner "controversy" occurred Spring/Summer of 1909 when the first SWEET CAPORAL cards were in circulation and American Litho.
removed his card very quickly.

Now, the yanking of the Plank most likely occurred concurrently with the removal of the Wagner card for either of the following reasons......

1....It is a documented fact that Eddie Plank was anti-tobacco. Most likely he followed Wagner's actions and informed ATC to remove his
card from circulation. Eddie was a low-keyed guy and did not receive the fanfare that Wagner got. A simple "cease & desist" order accom-
plished this back in those days.

2....Or, the Plank cards were simply discarded along with the Wagner's when they were discarded. I base this scenario on the statement that
was made when the "Gretzy Wagner" was being shopped around in the mid-1980's at the Willow Grove show......that it originally was cut from
a panel of which the Plank card was adjacent to it. This info went "underground" for many years. But, it recently was revealed when Charlie
Conlon's PIEDMONT Plank surfaced in the REA auction.

In any event, the brown HINDU and SOVEREIGN press runs were subsequent to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL press runs. And, by then
the situation regarding Wagner (and perhaps Plank) was over and done with....they were discontinued.

The HINDU tobacco products were produced at Factory #649 in Rochester, NY. ATC refurbished and modernized the old Kimball plant and this
plant was in operation in the Summer of 1909.


T-Rex TED

Ted,

I’m still not following your logic and to me it makes no sense at all????

There are (2) Piedmont Wagners that I know of both I think most would agree are trimmed or hand cut although one does reside in it’s wonderful PSA 8 holder. This card (PSA 8) is also the cornerstone of the grading industry yet the sheet mate Plank gets the AUTH years later too funny but I’m getting off point here LOL.

My point is taking Sovereign out of the mix, even taking Hindu out of the mix and focusing solely on Piedmont the ATC’s anchor brand as you say. Then answer this…..

Why can I get all the original 150 subjects with Piedmont 150 (not to mention Sovereign & Hindu) non hand cut such as the (2) lonely sole Wagners? Same goes for Plank 150’s of which there are (3) lonely hand cut cards one missing color too boot.

Seems to me if Wagner & Plank were on the initial launch run as you claim under the mega brand Piedmont surely we as a hobby would have seen gradable examples by now of Wagner with Piedmont 150 as well as Plank with Piedmont 150.

Also the fact that the Wagner PSA 8 was supposedly cut from a strip of cards with Plank is no real evidence either. We have no real idea other than stories on this, but from what I have heard it seems it was more of strip vs. a full sheet. I’m not sure how we can draw conclusions on sheet configurations from these hear say stories of the fateful night of trimming in a backroom.



How do you come to the conclusion and state for the record that Plank & Wagner were in this run? Even the sporting life advertisements don’t have Wagner pop up in the ads until late Aug 1909 let alone no Plank pictured. There were ads from July 1909 with no Wagner pictured.

Taking into account you have no large amount of Wagners with Piedmont 150 nor Plank cards that aren’t hand cut. Then the ads delay in showing Wagner for almost a month. Then the fact that we have 350’s of Plank but no Wagner and I think it shows more that Wagner was less likely tied to Plank out of the gate nor was Wagner in the first run per say.

If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also.

Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?

BTW still waiting on a bed of nails for your Magie image. I know you were after one forever and you called out your new one in the monster number thread love to see this baby, nice example Ted?

Cheers,

John

[atx840]

Not enough Plank in here. Notice that the missing color and dirty handcut have similar printing marks on the sides of the "Cigarette" line.

[tedzan]

If you don't want to accept my Wagner / Plank connection....then check-out your own words on this subject in Post #2 in this thread......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...nlon%27s+plank

" The nicest of the bunch is the sheet mate to the famous T206 Wagner PSA 8 (also P150) and was sold by REA for 100k used belong to Charlie Conlon sold to him by none other than Bill Mastro, and is IMO the nicest Plank in the world. "

I guess most would say that you and I are on the same page ! !


T-Rex TED

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I guess most would say that you and I are on the same page ! !T-Rex TED

Ted I beg to differ I think most folks who read the above would say we are far from on the same page.

Ted just because I feel that the Plank that was most likely cut from the same sheet as the McNall Wagner is the nicest Plank in the hobby (still do) doesn't mean I agree with you that Plank and Wagner were printed in the first 150 subjects run or at the same time. As I well pointed out why I find flaws in your statements.

I have to ask how does my view of that Plank even play into anything here? Did you even read my post? As I said above which you failed to read…see below…

“Also the fact that the Wagner PSA 8 was supposedly cut from a strip of cards with Plank is no real evidence either. We have no real idea other than stories on this, but from what I have heard it seems it was more of strip vs. a full sheet. I’m not sure how we can draw conclusions on sheet configurations from these hear say stories of the fateful night of trimming in a backroom.”

I think I have asked many good questions above which you seem to want to ignore as usual, most likely because they are in stark contrast with you theory and statements about T206.

So I will ask a again…

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

John

[steve B]

That mark is from a scratch on the plate or stone. One of those marks that will be found only on one position on the sheet.

The one shown has probably been corrected since it ends abruptly at the right edge of the printed area. It likely extended further, and was reapired in the border area with a limestone crayon used for fixing that sort of problem.

What would be interesting to see would be a different card withthe same mark, or either a different card or Plank with the uncorrected scratch.

Steve B

Originally Posted by atx840

Not enough Plank in here. Notice that the missing color and dirty handcut have similar printing marks on the sides of the "Cigarette" line.

[steve B]

Thanks Ted

1 I guess it's just an error on the spreadsheet. Good to know, now I just have to figure out how to remove the EP blocks.


2 I'm coming to think that the Magie and Magee should be considered as individual cards, Magie a 150 only and Magee a 150/350. I makes sense that if the error was in an early sheet and replaced they would have had to redo the brown artwork with the correct spelling and laydown an entirely new plate with the corrected version later, late enough that it ended up in the 150/350 group.

3) My thoughts change constantly on Plank as I learn more about that one card. considering your answer clarifies some of what I'd been thinking but didn't state well first time around.

I thought Plank was on an early 150/350 sheet rather than a 150 only sheet, but that seems wrong now finding out that the only Piedmont 150 ones are hand cut.
The Philadelphia area and other than philadelphia being treated differently at factory 649 doesn't directly affect Plank of course, but probably does affect Powers.
But the other factories would have used the same sheets, so if for instance Plank was removed after printing a small batch of SC 150 factory 30 and Powers added in extra quantity that might explain the Plank being so tough.

My thought on the 350 Plank - And now that I know there's only one that bit seems more likely- is that they were either using some of the sheets with the pulled cards as the make ready sheets and one got into the stack of production cards. It happens sometimes.
So I guess it could technically be considered a wrongback T206.

I'm not sure about the factory discarding particular cards. It could easily be done at the cutting stage but it's a bit labor intensive. I'd also expect a stack of one of the withdrawn cards to have turned up. It's a lot easier for a worker to stuff a handful of a card he's throwing away into a pocket than it is for them to bring home an entire sheet. Not to mention how attractive American Lithos trash must have been to the local kids.
Stopping production and simply not printing them would have been far easier.

Johns Point about the advertisements showing Wagner only coming out later in the summer of 09 seems to throw a wrench into both our theories. I just don't know enough about typical magazine lead times and publishing dates of that era. I'll have to do a bit of thinking on the timeline and some looking at my old magazines to see what I can find.

Steve B

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve B

Much to respond to here, so I'll try to focus on your major points.

1st....The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) back is found on T206's printed in all the other series....but, not on this series of these 12 subjects. The EPDG
back was first printed starting with the 350 series cards and continued to the 460 series cards.

2nd....As you know, the MAGIE card is simply a typo error of the Magee (portrait) card. This Magee is a 150/350 subject. Therefore, although the
MAGIE (error) card exists only with a PIEDMONT 150 back, he is not considered a 150-Only subject.

3rd....The only 350 backed Eddie Plank card is with a SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30 back which was stuffed into cigarette packs out of this NYC
plant. Tobacco products from this Factory were distributed in the New York-New England area. And, it is very interesting that the ATC log you noted
was labelled......"other than Phila territory".

If I understand your comment correctly, it sounds like they were continuing to issue the Plank cards; but, keeping them from view of Mr. Plank or his
boss, Connie Mack. If so, it sure was a very dumb attempt.

4....The Mike Powers tragedy was felt all over the BB world of that era. So, it's not surprising that certain cards of his were double-printed in order to
make them more available to the BB fans.


Good questions.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted,

There are (2) Piedmont Wagners that I know of both I think most would agree are trimmed or hand cut although one does reside in it’s wonderful PSA 8 holder. This card (PSA 8) is also the cornerstone of the grading industry yet the sheet mate Plank gets the AUTH years later too funny but I’m getting off point here LOL.

My point is taking Sovereign out of the mix, even taking Hindu out of the mix and focusing solely on Piedmont the ATC’s anchor brand as you say. Then answer this…..
Why can I get all the original 150 subjects with Piedmont 150 (not to mention Sovereign & Hindu) non hand cut such as the (2) lonely sole Wagners? Same goes for Plank 150’s of which there are (3) lonely hand cut cards one missingcolor too boot.





If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also.

John

1......Again, you agree with me regarding the PIEDMONT Wagner and Plank cards were "sheet-mates". We are making progress.

And yes, it is quite paradoxical that the Gretzky Wagner was graded as a PSA 8 card in the 1990's. While, in recent years, the Charlie Conlon Plank was graded as
an AUTHENTIC card by PSA. Although both these cards originated from the same source.

2......First, make no mistake, in the big picture....T206's with PIEDMONT backs outnumber T206's with all the SWEET CAPORAL backs by a factor of approx. 4 to 1.
This factor takes into account all cards of these two major brands that were tallied in two independent T206 surveys (18,000+ randomly sampled cards). You can
sample 100,000 - T206's and this ratio will not change that much.

With respect to the Wagner & Plank cards, it is obvious to anyone that the only brand of these two subjects that got into cigarette packs is the SWEET CAPORAL
brand. Why their PIEDMONT counterparts never got into cigarette packs remains a mystery, given the predominance of the PIEDMONT cards.

Now, consider this....if Wagner & Plank were NOT in this first press run; but, were printed subsequent to it (circa Summer/Fall of 1909) these two guys would also
have HINDU and SOVEREIGN backs....as the other 10 subjects in this initial press run have.

Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner
to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set.

That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.


TED Z

[Runscott]

Ted - quit arguing with John and send me the Plank info I asked for

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

One last time I do not agree with you that Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together for the first 150 production run of cards. I have explained that very clear above.

The Sporting news ads for these cards listed three major brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal & Sovereign as the first place for folks to go buy them when they announced the 150 series of these cards. If Wagner & Plank were in the very first sheet runs of these cards we would have them with all three brands and they wouldn’t be the rarity they are today.

http://t206resource.com/Sporting%20Life%20Ads.html
Check out this site you might learn something...kidding...but here are the ads for the other folks to see.

When they were added, why they were pulled, how they were pulled is anyone’s guess. But it’s safe to say if they were in the first production run if so I’d have them in my collection today with diff backs and they wouldn’t cost me or anyone else six figures plus.

“Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set. That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.”

Pure speculation and fantasy. It proves nothing. I produce mocks all the time for pre-production of goods they have very little to do with the true initial production runs and many mocks and molds aren’t brought into production until way later in the production or marketing process. Sure they are thought out ahead of time but that doesn’t mean they make the first cut.

Ted much of these things you present and argue as fact are just wild ideas with very little substance to back them. In fact if anything there are more holes in your ideas than solid direction and insight. It’s ok to have theories we all have some but very few of us argue and present them as fact. The only fact here is unless a sheet or notes lands in our laps we will never truly know.

Unrelated Note: Do I think that Conlon’s Plank came from off the same strip from the back room trimming yes I think it is very likely. BTW this is not your theory or insight either Ted about the McNall Wagner trim job this story has been passed around the hobby forever. As far as the Conlon Plank the plausible sheet mate you found about that when the card went of in REA. You’re not posting anything new for me to agree with you on so there’s no progress to be made.

John

P.S. Where’s the beef…or should I say where’s the Magie?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

The Sporting news ads for these cards listed three major brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal & Sovereign as the first place for folks to go buy them when they announced the 150 series of these cards. If Wagner & Plank were in the very first sheet runs of these cards we would have them with all three brands and they wouldn’t be the rarity they are today.

Realizing I am probably just continuing to amuse myself....

John, early advertising could have included Sovereign, even if Sovereign wasn't printed until after Sweet Caporal and Piedmont. And certainly, if there were suspected issues with printing Wagner and Plank, ATC would likely have limited their printing (as they obviously did), and one way of doing that would have been to only print them on SOME of the Piedmont and Sweet Caporal runs, and NONE of the Sovereign runs.

There is no reason that Ted's line of reasoning should be considered invalid simply because there aren't Sovereign-backed examples.

okay, ignore me and carry on with your 2-way discussion...

[wonkaticket]

Scott, it really boils down to this....for me, and I left Sov and SC out of the mix for the question below and went right to Piedmont.

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

You can't say Wagner & Plank were one of the first 12 printed or whatever then say that Piedmont was the major pride and joy brand and then have only a few handcut examples of Plank and Wagner with Piedmont.

If these cards were in the very first printing we would have many more them and they would show up more with all 3 first brands Sweet Cap as well.

Besides who sends customers to go buy smokes in 3 diff brands to get images of baseball players. I know my company doesn't advertise and send customers to dead ends makes no sense to run an ad to sell goods that can't be had.

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott, it really boils down to this....for me, and I left Sov and SC out of the mix for the question below and went right to Piedmont.

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

You can't say Wagner & Plank were one of the first 12 printed or whatever then say that Piedmont was the major pride and joy brand and then have only a few handcut examples of Plank and Wagner with Piedmont.

If these cards were in the very first printing we would have many more them and they would show up more with all 3 first brands Sweet Cap as well.

Besides who sends customers to go buy smokes in 3 diff brands to get images of baseball players. I know my company doesn't advertise and send customers to dead ends makes no sense to run an ad to sell goods that can't be had.

John

John, I'm reading your post very carefully, and I just don't get your logic.

Regarding advertising, while your company may have a great grasp on it, many don't - besides, advertising something in advance when it isn't yet available is not an anomaly. A multitude of events might have occurred to delay the printing of Sovereigns. Sure, the plan might have been that Sovereigns were 'THE' cigarette for the first run of T206s, but maybe there was an issue that caused that to not pan out...ink issue, design issue, anything could have caused a delay.

Regarding the short-printing of the Wagner and Plank, I don't get why they couldn't be in the first 150, but only a few sheets were printed. Also, no reason why they had to be hand-cut. Your logic might point to the more likely scenario, but given that we don't have any clear-cut answers, we can't really throw out any possibilities.

[Abravefan11]

A few things:

Wagner, Plank, Carwford (Throwing), Lundgren (Chicago) and Jennings (Portrait) were not included at the beginning of the 150 Series. These subjects are all absent from initial print runs that included the Sovereign 150 backs. Only the original 150 Subjects were printed at this time.

Besides just the back data two collections that were assembled during the time the 150 Series was being distributed support this information. The first was the collage that was auctioned recently. It included all of the original 150 Subjects with the exception of Kling, but the five noted subjects were not present. Steve C. did a nice write up explaining it in post #7 of this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=145675

The second was a collection that was shared with me after the collage thread that included all 150 original subjects as well as Lundgren and Jennings. But no Plank, Wagner or Crawford. These were assembled similarly to the collage that was auctioned and hadn't been removed from where they had been since being collected. They really are a great snapshot of the set at a given moment in time.

Of the initial twelve proposed to be the first cards printed in the T206 set in the OP the above address Wagner and Plank. The ten remaining on this list were not printed or produced any differently than the other 140 of the original 150 Subjects during the 150 Series. One of the last 150 Series printings was brown Hindu and all 10 of these subjects were included in that back run. The only thing that sets these cards apart from the other 140 is that they were discontinued when print group 1 began being printed with 350 Series backs.

[wonkaticket]

Scott,

Tim says exactly what I’ve been saying perhaps better. It’s all about timing and availability.

Look at the timeline that Ted is saying.

If those 12 players above were first to be printed with any of the three brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal or Sovereign you would see more of Wagner & Plank with potentially all three brands but at the very least more of them with Sweet Caporal. They wouldn’t be missing and so absent.

Generally your first production is one of your bigger productions as it’s your launch, then subsequent productions could be bigger or smaller depending demand and sell thru. Since we can narrow down Plank and Wagner to only factory dist cards with the Sweet Caporal brand let’s focus on that for now.

If they did run as Ted says Plank and Wagner in the first 12 then for whatever reason Wagner was pulled effecting Plank how did it not affect the other 10 above with Sweet Caporal to some degree as well? The fact is it didn’t those other 12 are even found with the other brands.

If Plank was affected by the pull of Wagner and there was a cease & deist etc. from Plank to the ATC how come he shows up in the 350 series? I have even done some numbers of my own since mid 1999 about 50 individual Planks have come to sale or been publicly offered of which only about 12 or so have been 150 series cards. Showing roughly at glance that perhaps the 150’s are scarcer of Plank which has been the idea with many collectors for some time. This would suggest IMO that Plank was added towards the tail end of the 150 runs and carried over into the 350 before going away for whatever reason. If Plank was run in the spring of 1909 as Ted says then not pulled till 1910 that’s one long legal battle to have your card pulled or be affected by Wagner your sheet mate.

None of us are going to have the exact answer but saying Wagner & Plank were among the first 12 cards ever printed and looking at their numbers today compared with other 150 series cards just doesn’t add up IMO.

In regards to advertising in advance yes that does happen Scott but not so much with consumables maybe with the Wii or new iPhone but on household cleaners and smokes…not as much IMO.

In the end I wish Ted was right then we all could afford to get a nice Wagner & Plank as they would have printed quite a few of them in that very first flick of the switch at the factory before yanking them for whatever historical reason.

John

[steve B]

I do think that Plank was later, but also that the 12 plus Magie were earlier.

The timing of the ads does add a bit of doubt though. And a couple specific questions.
1) What were the advertising deadlines for sporting life. It may be in the magazine somewhere. It's conceivable that the ad copy had to be in more than a month before the publication date. Making the submission of the Wagner ad pretty close to or before the start of the promotion.

2) Being a weekly, the printing lead time would have been short for Sporting life, what was that lead time. In other words were they reporting on stuff that happened the week before the cover date, or stuff perhaps 2 weeks before since they needed printing and distribution time to get it together and on the newsstands.

If they were doing the week immediately prior to the publication date as SI does now that's very impressive given the technology of the day.

The timing I think could work is that the 12 cards (not including Plank but including Magie) went to press, fronts were printed for the SC press run, but partway in and while backs were being printed the Wagner had to be pulled. Production stopped while a new plate was made, and the second plate containing Magie went to press. The error was found and for some reason they decided to correct it. And that plate was pulled.
Both plates were wiped clear (Actually sets of stones, all 6+ for Wagner and maybe only the brown for Magie.) And laid out with the same subjects but with Brown Cubs replacing both errors.
Then being behind in production both plates were sent to press producing fronts which were used for only SC Piedmont and Hindu.
That timeline works for that set of cards based on how dificult each card is, the Brown is pretty easy and the rest of the group isn't while all but Wagner and Magie are roughly equal.

I'm thinking Soverign was printed after Hindu, as there are no soverign 150s that don't also have a 350 back available. (Unless the superset spreadsheet is misleading me again, in which case I'll have to do some serious remodeling of it since I find it easier to see patterns that way)

I can say that at least for bicycle parts advertising things that are either unavailable to the public or not in production yet was common. I wanted a particular set of pedals for about a year before the shop told me that while they were the main feature of a full page ad the company had not produced any. Yes, they advertised an unavailble product for a year or more. Silly but true. And as far as I can figure out they were never produced for that brand although they were made and sold by a european brand.

Steve B

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott,

Tim says exactly what I’ve been saying perhaps better. It’s all about timing and availability.

Look at the timeline that Ted is saying.

If those 12 players above were first to be printed with any of the three brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal or Sovereign you would see more of Wagner & Plank with potentially all three brands but at the very least more of them with Sweet Caporal. They wouldn’t be missing and so absent.

Generally your first production is one of your bigger productions as it’s your launch, then subsequent productions could be bigger or smaller depending demand and sell thru. Since we can narrow down Plank and Wagner to only factory dist cards with the Sweet Caporal brand let’s focus on that for now.

If they did run as Ted says Plank and Wagner in the first 12 then for whatever reason Wagner was pulled effecting Plank how did it not affect the other 10 above with Sweet Caporal to some degree as well? The fact is it didn’t those other 12 are even found with the other brands.

If Plank was affected by the pull of Wagner and there was a cease & deist etc. from Plank to the ATC how come he shows up in the 350 series? I have even done some numbers of my own since mid 1999 about 50 individual Planks have come to sale or been publicly offered of which only about 12 or so have been 150 series cards. Showing roughly at glance that perhaps the 150’s are scarcer of Plank which has been the idea with many collectors for some time. This would suggest IMO that Plank was added towards the tail end of the 150 runs and carried over into the 350 before going away for whatever reason. If Plank was run in the spring of 1909 as Ted says then not pulled till 1910 that’s one long legal battle to have your card pulled or be affected by Wagner your sheet mate.

None of us are going to have the exact answer but saying Wagner & Plank were among the first 12 cards ever printed and looking at their numbers today compared with other 150 series cards just doesn’t add up IMO.

In regards to advertising in advance yes that does happen Scott but not so much with consumables maybe with the Wii or new iPhone but on household cleaners and smokes…not as much IMO.

In the end I wish Ted was right then we all could afford to get a nice Wagner & Plank as they would have printed quite a few of them in that very first flick of the switch at the factory before yanking them for whatever historical reason.

John

[Abravefan11]

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

Tim, your theory seems just as plausible as the others, but like the others, there's no hard evidence - just the 'indicators' that you mention. If you can put those indicators together in a way that proves your theory, you should do so.

For instance, the collage and the collection that you describe - this is great, but not 'proof' by any means. You are claiming that the fact that Plank and Wagner are NOT in either is some sort of proof that they weren't in the initial print run. That doesn't make sense simply because of the fact that we already know these two cards are scarce and therefore unlikely to be present in ANY collection, regardless of when it was printed.

I have not spent any time doing such research into the Plank/Wagner issue as you, Steve, Jim, Ted, John, etc. - I'm simply reading the results of your research and trying to make sense of all the various theories so that I can organize them in one place where they can be referenced and each judged on its own merits.

[steve B]

AH! I see my mistake. For some reason I had it in my head that none of the 11 came with Sovereign. DOH!

I'm still interested in the lead time questions, they may make a difference in wether wagner being in the ad matters as much.

I still think that the group was on the same sheet or sheets and that either a pulled card was on the sheet and replaced by Brown Cubs or that he was double printed. The pattern for those 11 is pretty solid. Obviusly Wagner and Magie are out as well as Plank or yeah, there should be sovereigns of all of them.

I've got some rethinking to do......


I'm also reconsidering wether they might have pulled wagner/magie in the cutting phase. If the layout was blocks of a player it would have been easier, but there should still be a scrap or two if that was done.

Steve B

Steve B

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

John

TELL US ALL......how do you know how many PIEDMONT versions of these two subjects were actually printed....NOT SHIPPED....just PRINTED ? ?

The truth is NO ONE KNOWS !


In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here.
When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner &
Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.

Batches of the ten 150-Only cards were shipped to PIEDMONT Factory #25 (VA) and were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in areas South of New York
and New England.

That includes Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, so you do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand why ALC was not going to ship PIEDMONT Wagner & Plank cards to
the Richmond Factory.

Now, the question is.....why were SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 Wagner & Plank cards shipped to Richmond to possibly be marketed in the Pennsylvania area ?

My guess on that is a few sneaked out of ALC. A meaningful test of this would be a survey of how many Wagner & Plank cards are SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 vs
SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here. When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner & Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.

Batches of the ten 150-Only cards were shipped to PIEDMONT Factory #25 (VA) and were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in areas South of New York and New England.

That includes Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, so you do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand why ALC was not going to ship PIEDMONT Wagner & Plank cards to the Richmond Factory.

Now, the question is.....why were SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 Wagner & Plank cards shipped to Richmond to possibly be marketed in the Pennsylvania area ?

My guess on that is a few sneaked out of ALC. A meaningful test of this would be a survey of how many Wagner & Plank cards are SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 vs SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 ?

TED Z

Ted - With all due respect, none of that is true.

[Runscott]

John - thanks for responding to my post. I think it's good to get some others involved, as right now it's just more of the old alignment of you and Tim vs Ted. We aren't getting anywhere with that.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

[B]The truth is NO ONE KNOWS !
In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here.When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner &
Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.TED Z

Ted you’re fantasy’s are just too much for me I presented some good questions/evidence here has Tim. All you have are misc dates you pulled out your thoughts that Plank was giving the ATC cease & desist letters and your pulled from thin air these are the first 12 players ever printed and you have the nerve to say I don’t know or have evidence.

Read your above statement Ted. In 1909 the ATC started cranking out several press runs of Wagner & Plank really? And you know this how? Plank said he didn’t want his image with tobacco and notified the ATC. Again you know this how? The ATC immediately clipped off Wagner & Plank from Piedmont. Once again you know this how?

YOU don’t know this either. The above is pure speculation or fantasy until you have hard evidence.

Yeah Plank was so against his image that the ATC “immediately” pulled his Piedmont card from the original 12 and a few Sweet Cap 150’s slipped out. The ATC seemed to be so worried about the so called litigation from Plank that you theorize about so much that ATC let some 350’s of Plank slip out months to almost a year later as well.

I don’t know for fact how many Piedmont Wagners or Planks were printed never claimed too. Or if they were ever printed in fact I say I doubt they were ever printed for production. Hence my disagreement with you and your thoughts. Ted YOU also have no idea if they ever even made it to production for distribution with the Piedmont brand but it doesn’t stop you from typing it as fact.

Seeing as we only have 2 Wagners and 3 Planks known to date with Piedmont 150 backs all which are hand cut or missing color or something. Seems like a very logical thought they never did make it into distribution as factory finished cards. We draw the same conclusion on Brown Old Mill and there are more examples of Brown Old Mill than Piedmont 150’s of Plank and Wagner…so why do we toss that logic here because you say so?

Ted have at it for the rest of the thread. I’m finished trying to share information with you or even question your ideas. It’s so painfully clear all you want is pats on the back and to be told how smart you are. There is no real quest for you to figure out this set. Your main goal is to convince everyone that you’re right and that all things T206 in regards of knowledge have some ties to you in some shape or form.

Ted if anyone needs evidence at this point it’s you for the record. I’m not the one with a laundry list of fantasy theories. I’m not the person with a history of tall tales and faked scans of cards that don’t exist. I’m not the one with stories of cards I don’t own. I’m not the one who when challenged to produce cards of question has excuses of “opps just sold him” or ends up posting fake scans. You are a real enigma Ted I have never met someone so hell bent on being taken as a serious scholar who limelight’s with fish stories and tall tales. You really make me laugh sometimes even if some of the stuff isn’t so funny.

John

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Runscott

John - thanks for responding to my post. I think it's good to get some others involved, as right now it's just more of the old alignment of you and Tim vs Ted. We aren't getting anywhere with that.

Scott it's just not that simple....

Scott it isn't a me vs. Ted thing it's a me vs. tale tales presented as fact on a public forum thing. You start weaving tale tales, making up cards that don’t exist. Telling folks you own things you don’t. Start messing with lists that folks as a collective community have worked on for years all the while claiming them as your own. Post pure fantasy topics as fact. All while having an attitude about it then when your called to task for your own actions cry victim and I’ll question your thoughts and comments as well.

Cheers,

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott it's just not that simple....

Scott it isn't a me vs. Ted thing it's a me vs. tale tales presented as fact on a public forum thing. You start weaving tale tales, making up cards that don’t exist. Telling folks you own things you don’t. Start messing with lists that folks as a collective community have worked on for years all the while claiming them as your own. Post pure fantasy topics as fact. All while having an attitude about it then when your called to task for your own actions cry victim and I’ll question your thoughts and comments as well.

Cheers,

John

Thanks, John. I understand. I will attempt to gather the unbiased parts of each theory, write something up, send it for review to those whose input I've filched, and go from there.

Also, Thank Tim and Ted for the detail you've both sent me.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Tim, your theory seems just as plausible as the others, but like the others, there's no hard evidence - just the 'indicators' that you mention. If you can put those indicators together in a way that proves your theory, you should do so.

For instance, the collage and the collection that you describe - this is great, but not 'proof' by any means. You are claiming that the fact that Plank and Wagner are NOT in either is some sort of proof that they weren't in the initial print run. That doesn't make sense simply because of the fact that we already know these two cards are scarce and therefore unlikely to be present in ANY collection, regardless of when it was printed.

Scott - I'm going to do my best to explain as best I can and let me know if something isn't clear. I'll be happy to answer what I can.

The proof that Wagner, Plank and others were not printed in the first part of the 150 Series isn't the collages. It's evident by the different pieces of information we can gather to build a timeline for the 150 series. For example when certain backs were printed, which subjects were printed with them, the dates of some of the ledgers, and the advertisements.

The information that these five subjects were not in the original 150 subjects was made public before either of the collages were known. The collages don't prove anything but I believe they lend a great deal of support to the already stated information.

You're absolutely correct that almost any collection is going to be missing a Wagner and a Plank. But there are several points that are key to the collages.

1) Both collages consist of only subjects from print group 1.
2) Both include the subjects from print group 1 that were discontinued prior to the 350 series.
3) Both collages consist of cards adhered to a surface and remain in the way they were collected.

This tells us that they had to be collected during the 150 Series.

4) Both collages exclude Wagner, Plank and Crawford.

Yes, most collections from any given time will not include a Wagner or Plank, but the absence of Crawford in both and Jennings and Lungren in one further supports all of the other evidence that they were not added until later in the 150 Series. The information came before the collages and not the other way around.

In addition I think it's important to note the following when trying to understand Plank and Wagner:

Probably the most confusing part of the 150 Series, and the nuances of many of the subjects within it, is the Piedmont 150 back. It misleads many to think that if a subject can be found with this back that they must have been printed early in the 150 Series. The Magie subject shows us that it was the first back brand produced for the set. So was that when Plank, Wagner and the others were printed with Piedmont? Not at all. Packs of Piedmont cigarettes were issued with cards throughout the 150 Series, unlike brands like Sovereign and Hindu that were only available for a period of time. So Plank and Wagner were not in the initial Piedmont printing but were to be offered with a later offering of Piedmont 150's but ultimately not released.

So with brands like Hindu and Sovereign we have good evidence of what was happening during a given time in the series, but Piedmont and Sweet Caporal are much more difficult to understand.

I hope this better illustrates the points I was trying to make and again let me know if I can clarify anything.

[barrysloate]

About 5-6 years ago, a family consigned a large group of T206's to me that belonged to their father. It was an original intact collection, with several hundred Sovereigns in it. And also included was a Plank series 350. Does that shed any light on this?

[tedzan]

Barry

Thanks for bringing up this original SOVEREIGN collection (including the Plank card).

I won this large SOVEREIGN lot in your auction (Nov 2006).
Here is the description of the cards......

262 SOVEREIGN cards (including Green Cobb, 2-Johnson's, Speaker, CYoung, plus 34 HOFers)........
NOTE:
112 cards were SOVEREIGN 150
109 cards were SOVEREIGN 350
041 cards were SOVEREIGN 460

18 SOVEREIGN HOFers

Red Cobb SOVEREIGN 350

Cobb (bat on shoulder) SOVEREIGN 150

Cobb (bat off shoulder) SOVEREIGN 350

CYoung (portrait) SOVEREIGN 350

Plank......SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory 30


Sure was a great boost in helping me complete my all-SOVEREIGN set.

Thanks again, Barry


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Happy you won them Ted, and thanks for the series breakdown. Back then, it didn't even cross my mind to list the different series in my catalog descriptions. So I've never really known what was in there.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Steve - The Sovereign 150 cards were not printed toward the end, but rather the beginning of the 150 Series. There are many indicators that show this to be so including set data, ledger pages, advertisements, etc.

All indicators also show that Plank, Wagner and Crawford were added to the set at the same time. Wagner was then pulled first, Plank pulled second and Crawford was never pulled and printed like any other subject from group 1 for the remainder of it's production.

Tim, I was looking for your explanation of the 150 series on your website - in the page I found on your site, you state your theory as fact (as opposed to "we think", "evidence indicates", "most likely", etc.). I could not find the evidence that led you to these conclusions - you have alluded to it (ledger pages, advertising dates, etc.) but I can't find where you pull all that together. Is there a place on your site or elsewhere that lays all this out, so that it's easy for a numbskull like me to understand it (as opposed to simply stating it is fact). Please keep in mind that as you said, it took months of discussions for it to sink in for some when it was first presented to them, and I can promise I am probably even slower, but if you lay it out for me I might get it. Thanks.

Here was the page I found where you stated your conclusions, but I couldn't find the back-up: 150 series info on T206Resource.com

[Runscott]

Ted, to me the following breakdown would support Tim's theory. If a collector worked this hard on a Sovereign set, and went to the trouble of locating a Plank, you would think that they could have found a Sovereign if one existed.

Originally Posted by tedzan

112 cards were SOVEREIGN 150
109 cards were SOVEREIGN 350
041 cards were SOVEREIGN 460

Plank......SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory 30

[Abravefan11]

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

We would love to breakdown every single conclusion that we draw on the site to it's most minute detail, but we felt it best to keep as much as possible simple and to the point.

[Runscott]

Thanks Tim. I was looking for that page, but the link was sending me somewhere else (I think ).

As far as presenting 'the most minute detail', it doesn't have to be 'minute' . I just think that you are keeping it TOO simple. You have alluded to backing facts that aren't being presented, and without those, it's a very interesting theory, but not convincing enough to state so definitively that other theories are rubbish. So far I'm getting the feeling that some of the evidence behind it is being taken by you all to mean something that could be interpreted differently;i.e - the advertising, as I've already explained (as have others).

Don't get me wrong - yours is as good as any presented. I doubt anyone would dispute that. Well, maybe a couple

Thanks,
Scott

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Scott - The closest explanation we give to what you're looking for is on the Print Group 1 page on T206Rsource.com.

It states the following about the Sovereign 150

Original 150 Subjects

Throughout the T206 set, the Sovereign back brand is an important key for understanding the set's composition. During the early production of the 150 Series, subjects from group 1 were printed with the Sovereign 150 back. Though this group totals 159 subjects, the Sovereign 150 checklist is complete at 150 subjects. This Sovereign checklist is thought to be the original 150 subjects in the set, with the additional nine being updated or added to the print group after the Sovereign 150 printing -- or in the case of Magie/Magee, corrected prior to this printing.

We would love to breakdown every single conclusion that we draw on the site to it's most minute detail, but we felt it best to keep as much as possible simple and to the point.

[Runscott]

Ted, Tim,

I know that your group of 12 (or 11 or 13) differs slightly, but regardless...

Could someone please explain the significance of the '150 only' group of 12 (or 13 or 11)? And why do you think sheets were printed containing ONLY those cards? At the time that the first sheets were printed, I don't think ATC knew which cards would NOT be included in the '350' group.

I'm sure this information is presented somewhere, but it eludes me.

Originally Posted by tedzan

150-Only Series

PIEDMONT (Factory 25)
12 subjects......All 12 of these cards were most likely "multi-printed" on the first sheet. My conjecture is a format that was 12 cards across a row by "n" number of rows down.
Resulting in a vertically repeated array of each card.

DITTO for SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 25 & 30)

TED Z

a.k.a......T-Rex TED

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Runscott

As far as presenting 'the most minute detail', it doesn't have to be 'minute' . I just think that you are keeping it TOO simple.

Thanks,
Scott

We knew when the site went live that some areas would need additional information added. We decided that once we launched the best approach would be to listen to the feedback of the readers. If we receive questions about specific sections and it's evident more content is needed to clarify certain points we will be adding it. The entire site is a work in progress and will grow over time. Thanks for the feedback.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

We knew when the site went live that some areas would need additional information added. We decided that once we launched the best approach would be to listen to the feedback of the readers. If we receive questions about specific sections and it's evident more content is needed to clarify certain points we will be adding it. The entire site is a work in progress and will grow over time. Thanks for the feedback.

Thanks Tim. Sadly, I don't think the 'where did Plank and Wagner start off?' discussion is going anywhere without your backing evidence, but that's fine. We have a couple of theories with very little to back them up and that's basically where we were a year ago.

If you ever decide to publish your evidence that backs up your theory, I will be the first to read it.