What’s the obsession with Mickey Mantle?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Seriously. There was this mythology about the 52 card being printed late and scads of them buried at sea. Now all sorts of other Mantle cards seem to be steadily increasing in value. What’s the obsession with Mantle? Are there a few hundred thousand Billy Crystal clones out there. Babe Ruth sure. Jackie sure. I get those. They are part of the fabric of American history. But Mantle was a big strong galoot who hit some amazing dingers. Not denigrating his stats, but don’t understand the collecting obsession around him.

I think I would do a little sabermetric research, Steve. Mantle is one of just 7 players in the history of the game to produce more than 200% of league average runs created (credit to Bill James, who ranks Mantle as the 5th best major league player of all time). His 215% in that category, going by recollection, is tied for third with Lou Gehrig, behind only Ruth, at 240%, and Williams, at 250%. His OBPS+ of 172 is fifth best of all time, I believe (behind, going by memory, only Ruth at 204; Williams at 190; Hornsby at 175; and Gehrig at 174), considerably ahead of Mays (156) and Aaron (155). His on base percentage alone--.421--is among the very best of all time, far beyond Mays and Aaron, who were each in the .380 range. Per James in the early 2000's, his 1961 season--54 HR's, 128 RBI, .317 BA, 126 walks, .448 OBP--although great stats, and ranked by James as the 15th best season of all time, is MERELY MANTLE'S THIRD BEST SEASON (both his 1956 triple crown year and his 1957 season were better)!. Add in 12 pennants in his first 14 seasons to go with 7 world championships = Mantle don't give up nothin' to nobody (or at least very, very little!). In short, objectively, there is absolutely no OBJECTIVE dispute that he does indeed rank with the greatest to ever play the game.

James also wrote that although Mantle and Mays appeared to have similar production in their peak years, Mays was actually making about 60 or more outs per year than Mantle, based on the fact that the Mick walked, much, much more often (hence the higher OBP) and grounded into roughly just half as many double plays.

I haven't read through every previous post at this somewhat late hour, but if your first post was in jest, as the objective stats indicate that it might well have been, please excuse the above dissertation. I do agree, however, that his '52 Topps, although iconic, is overpriced. A near mint example, for instance, was priced at around $30,000 in 1991, and hence has only increased in value in the 5 to 6% compounded annually range, having had its ups and downs, as one would expect, considering its' ready availability. A really good collectible should be at least 10% or better compounded annually through the last 25 years or so if purchased for investment purposes.

Best wishes,

Larry

[oldjudge]

Batting third for the Yankees, Mantle’s most important job was to knock in runs. In his 18 seasons he finished with 1509 RBIs. In less seasons those all time greats Carlos Delgado, Jeff Kent, Jeff Bagwell and Harry Hellmann had more RBIs. Lou Gehrig had 473 more RBIs in two less seasons. DiMaggio had more RBIs than Mantle and he played five fewer years.

[ls7plus]

Nice try, but all of those pure counting numbers are context dependent, i.e. directly related to the conditions under which the game in those respective eras was being played, and the relative ease or difficulty in scoring runs. A proper comparison, entails the use of statistics which control for the difference in those conditions. Those that I have used above perform exactly that function.

Sincerely,

Larry

[oldjudge]

Larry, I repeat, Mantle’s job batting third for the Yankees was to drive in runs. I took a look at one of the players I mentioned, Harry Hellmann, and compared his impact on his team to the impact of Mantle on his. What I compared was, over the course of their careers what percentage of their teams runs did the knock in. Interestingly, Mantle knocked in 12% of the Yankees runs. Hellmann, hardly the face of the hobby, knocked in 14% of his team’s runs.
In 1961, after he had left the Yankees, Casey Stengel put together a list of the greatest players he had seen, by league, at each position. He listed three American League center fielders: Tris Speaker, Ty Cobb and Joe DiMaggio. Mantle didn’t even get an honorable mention.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Larry, I repeat, Mantle’s job batting third for the Yankees was to drive in runs. I took a look at one of the players I mentioned, Harry Hellmann, and compared his impact on his team to the impact of Mantle on his. What I compared was, over the course of their careers what percentage of their teams runs did the knock in. Interestingly, Mantle knocked in 12% of the Yankees runs. Hellmann, hardly the face of the hobby, knocked in 14% of his team’s runs.
In 1961, after he had left the Yankees, Casey Stengel put together a list of the greatest players he had seen, by league, at each position. He listed three American League center fielders: Tris Speaker, Ty Cobb and Joe DiMaggio. Mantle didn’t even get an honorable mention.

Interesting that you brought up Harry Heilmann. One of the most underrated hitters of all-time. In the 1920s, he had one .403 season and batted over .390 three other seasons to the tune of a .342 lifetime average. 5 separate seasons exceeded a 1.000 OPS. Hornsby & Cobb-like figures. Incredible numbers. One could easily argue that along with Hornsby, Foxx, Aaron, Ramirez, Pujols and Cabrera, he resides as one of baseball’s greatest all-time right-handed hitters.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Interesting that you brought up Harry Heilmann. One of the most underrated hitters of all-time. In the 1920s, he had one .403 season and batted over .390 three other seasons to the tune of a .342 lifetime average. 5 separate seasons exceeded a 1.000 OPS. Hornsby & Cobb-like figures. Incredible numbers. One could easily argue that along with Hornsby, Foxx, Aaron, Ramirez, Pujols and Cabrera, he resides as one of baseball’s greatest all-time right-handed hitters.

Just wanted to acknowledge the props for HH

[aconte]

Harry Heilmann

Most people have no idea who this guy is.

Most collectors know the name Scott Hileman of SGC better than Harry
(not here of course).

So you can't be surprised why Harry and most other players take a major
back seat when it comes to card prices of Mick.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

I think I would do a little sabermetric research, Steve. Mantle is one of just 7 players in the history of the game to produce more than 200% of league average runs created (credit to Bill James, who ranks Mantle as the 5th best major league player of all time). His 215% in that category, going by recollection, is tied for third with Lou Gehrig, behind only Ruth, at 240%, and Williams, at 250%. His OBPS+ of 172 is fifth best of all time, I believe (behind, going by memory, only Ruth at 204; Williams at 190; Hornsby at 175; and Gehrig at 174), considerably ahead of Mays (156) and Aaron (155). His on base percentage alone--.421--is among the very best of all time, far beyond Mays and Aaron, who were each in the .380 range. Per James in the early 2000's, his 1961 season--54 HR's, 128 RBI, .317 BA, 126 walks, .448 OBP--although great stats, and ranked by James as the 15th best season of all time, is MERELY MANTLE'S THIRD BEST SEASON (both his 1956 triple crown year and his 1957 season were better)!. Add in 12 pennants in his first 14 seasons to go with 7 world championships = Mantle don't give up nothin' to nobody (or at least very, very little!). In short, objectively, there is absolutely no OBJECTIVE dispute that he does indeed rank with the greatest to ever play the game.

James also wrote that although Mantle and Mays appeared to have similar production in their peak years, Mays was actually making about 60 or more outs per year than Mantle, based on the fact that the Mick walked, much, much more often (hence the higher OBP) and grounded into roughly just half as many double plays.

I haven't read through every previous post at this somewhat late hour, but if your first post was in jest, as the objective stats indicate that it might well have been, please excuse the above dissertation. I do agree, however, that his '52 Topps, although iconic, is overpriced. A near mint example, for instance, was priced at around $30,000 in 1991, and hence has only increased in value in the 5 to 6% compounded annually range, having had its ups and downs, as one would expect, considering its' ready availability. A really good collectible should be at least 10% or better compounded annually through the last 25 years or so if purchased for investment purposes.

Best wishes,

Larry

Bill James has Mantle 6th. He has Mays 3rd behind only Ruth and Wagner. So why isn't Willie Mays the face of post-war baseball cards? It is a valid question.

[Snapolit1]

Maybe 400 or 500 posts from now someone will get close to the actual reason. I will stay tuned.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe 400 or 500 posts from now someone will get close to the actual reason. I will stay tuned.

Bob Costas explained it in post #22.

[aconte]

It's 2018, I don't need a reason. He's the best.

When a non-collecting friend hears I collect cards, normally the first question
asked is "Do you got any Mantles?" If you feel, his cards aren't worth owning
this is fine. I'm sure there are a couple others that would agree. Most that
think his cards are worth having may not have seen him play except on
film.

Maybe fifty years from now, no one will care. But I'm betting if Mantle
cards aren't chased after and are worth much less, then all the other
Mays, Aarons, Robinsons, Clementes, etc will be worth less too.

[WWG]

'nuff said'

Awards
Hall Of Fame
Year Team League
1974 NY Yankees

Uniform number retired
Year Team League
1969 NY Yankees

AL MVP
Year Team League
1956 NY Yankees
1957 NY Yankees
1962 NY Yankees

World Series Championship
Year Team League
1951 NY Yankees
1952 NY Yankees
1953 NY Yankees
1956 NY Yankees
1958 NY Yankees
1961 NY Yankees
1962 NY Yankees

AL All-Star
Year Team League
1952 NY Yankees
1953 NY Yankees
1954 NY Yankees
1955 NY Yankees
1956 NY Yankees
1957 NY Yankees
1958 NY Yankees
1959 NY Yankees
1959 NY Yankees
1960 NY Yankees
1960 NY Yankees
1961 NY Yankees
1961 NY Yankees
1962 NY Yankees
1962 NY Yankees
1963 NY Yankees
1964 NY Yankees
1965 NY Yankees
1967 NY Yankees
1968 NY Yankees

Rawlings AL Gold Glove
Year Team League
1962 NY Yankees

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe 400 or 500 posts from now someone will get close to the actual reason. I will stay tuned.

Plenty of posts in this thread have mentioned the myriad reasons why Mantle occupies the lofty perch he does in the Post War card world. If you’re looking for one mathematical reason, you won’t be getting that kind of answer. It is a confluence of many factors, many of which involve what some call the intangibles. With a modicum of effort it’s not so hard to grasp.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bill James has Mantle 6th. He has Mays 3rd behind only Ruth and Wagner. So why isn't Willie Mays the face of post-war baseball cards? It is a valid question.

He didn't play for the Yankees, he wasn't in the WS every year, he didn't have the mystique of overcoming handicapping pain, and he wasn't blonde with folk hero looks.

[Johnny630]

The obsession is money, bottom line period. His cards hold value everyone wants them. Beautiful ones sell, ones that have been ran over buy a tuck sell....it’s crazy but we all know it’s true. Mantle and Ruth are two names that will always be the last card a collector wants to sell.

[guy3050]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

The obsession is money, bottom line period. His cards hold value everyone wants them. Beautiful ones sell, ones that have been ran over buy a tuck sell....it’s crazy but we all know it’s true. Mantle and Ruth are two names that will always be the last card a collector wants to sell.

Not according To Ebay

https://www.ebay.com/sch/212/i.html?...mantle&_sop=16

[GaryPassamonte]

Mantle was the right player at the right time on the right team and had that intangible- charisma, agreeing with Adam. King Kelly wasn't the best player of his time, but was probably the most popular and his card values reflect that fact. His Four Base Hit card may be the "King" of 19th century issues, with mention to the Old Judge Anson in uniform and the Just So Young. Charisma.

[Nick55]

What's interesting to me is that even Mantle himself couldn't answer the question posed by the O.P. (Costas mentions that in the eulogy at the link in post #22). I think the reason for the difficulty in finding an answer, at least in part, is that everyone is looking just at Mantle. But, I think it's not just about Mantle and all of his abilities and accomplishments as great as they were. It's that and way more. For all of the various reasons mentioned in this thread, America (and New York, especially, for obvious reasons) in the '50's and '60's, projected themselves onto him. He was one of them, in a way. They made him their hero and rallied around him. They chose him. He became the glue that bound them together as a community. And he's the shared memory of the '50's and '60's for many. There's absolutely value in that. Those who lived it will pay to buy into that "community" and memory again. Those who didn't but have families members who did, will also pay into that "community." Those who have heard the stories will do the same. And up the price goes. It's all good in that sense. Kind of reminds me of the movie "Field of Dreams" a bit. Same thing. Just my opinion, of course.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bill James has Mantle 6th. He has Mays 3rd behind only Ruth and Wagner. So why isn't Willie Mays the face of post-war baseball cards? It is a valid question.

RACE, my friend, RACE

[rats60]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

RACE, my friend, RACE

Then why aren't Jackie Robinson and Roberto Clemente cards cheap? They are black and their cards are worth more than Ted Williams.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

RACE, my friend, RACE

It may have to do with race with certain individuals, but I wouldn’t collect anything Mays because, in my experience, he’s just not a nice person. I couldn’t collect someone that I didn’t like off the field as well as on. That’s just me though.

[barrysloate]

Although Mantle struggled early in his career, he was known for hitting prodigious home runs, most famously the 565-foot blast at Griffith Stadium in 1953, and the ball that nearly went out of Yankee Stadium, just missing when it hit the top of the facade in right field. These blasts help cement his Paul Bunyon reputation, but it was just one factor of many.

He was a blue-eyed blonde-haired kid from the hardscrabble town of Commerce, Oklahoma, who came to the big city and became its hero; he played for the best team in baseball, which won the World Series nearly every year; he played in the 1950's, arguably one of the Golden Ages of baseball; and he won back-to-back MVP's, including the Triple Crown in 1956. All of these things, including others, cemented his legendary status.

If you grew up in the 1950's and 60's and followed baseball, you would understand why Mantle was so beloved. Just looking at his stats today only tells a part of the story.

[KCRfan1]

To coat tail on Barry's comment, Mantle played in New York - the media capital of the world. Not just in print but television as well despite TV being in its infancy.

It was a perfect storm.

A blond blue eyed, good looking kid, playing the National pastime in the media capital of the world. Most of the population of the country was within 800 miles of NY, so it's easy to see how Mantle was known. Taking over centerfield that was played by an icon, Joe DiMaggio.

The Yankees were perennial pennant winners.

Our heroes were larger than life then, free from media scrutiny. There was no internet or cellphone, instant news, "gotcha" moments.

I couldn't tell you a sports persona today that's even close to Mantle.

[Case12]

In the 60's my first bat was a Mickey Mantle. Like all kids I almost slept with that bat and stared at his name falling asleep. He was legendary to me. To add to this for me was Johnny Bench. My first glove was a Bench catchers mit. Everytime I oiled it, put it under the matress or caught a ball I saw his name. For a baby boomer these names remain nostalgic to me.

And for real I put bubblegum cards in the spokes of my bicycle wheels with clothes pens. Who knows how many special cards got that 'sensation' for a young kid.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bill James has Mantle 6th. He has Mays 3rd behind only Ruth and Wagner. So why isn't Willie Mays the face of post-war baseball cards? It is a valid question.

No. As I stated, James has Mantle as the 5th best MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER of all time. He has Oscar Charleston ahead of the Mick, but Oscar never played in even a single major league game. In addition, much of the earlier Negro Leagues' schedules included games with semi-pro teams, against whom Oscar would have had a big-time edge. As I've said before, James denies he was being politically correct, but Oscar's rating by necessity must be based on hearsay many times over, myth, smoke and illusion. It certainly has no evidentiary foundation, though I'm sure Charleston was indeed a very good player.

Best wishes, Rats 60. Nice to see you speak Bill James quite fluently,

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

I question ranking Mantle ahead of Ted, although it's only by one place.

Speaking of James, at this point I guess he's not going to update his all time great book from the late 90s, too bad it would be fascinating.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I question ranking Mantle ahead of Ted, although it's only by one place.

Speaking of James, at this point I guess he's not going to update his all time great book from the late 90s, too bad it would be fascinating.

To me, and I think James, Mantle gets the nod because of his greater value on defense. Having seen him in his prime, he was indeed, as James describes him, a very, very good centerfielder and better baserunner. From a purely offensive value standpoint, it is Ted by about 14% going by James' runs created formula versus league average player, and by about 9.5% by the less accurate OPS+.

Highest regards,

Larry