Pie Traynor cards and memorabilia are awesome

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Players on your list:

Graig Nettles
Ken Boyer
Buddy Bell
Sal Bando
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey
Toby Harrah

Players on your list who were better 3B than Pie Traynor:

Graig Nettles (insanely better 3B than Traynor)
Ken Boyer (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Buddy Bell (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Sal Bando (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey

Do they belong in the HOF? Not saying that. Just that they are all (minus Toby Harrah) better than Pie Traynor.

I would also add the following non-HOF 3B as easily better than Pie Traynor:

Scott Rolen
Robin Ventura
Stan Hack
Bob Elliot
Heinie Groh
Matt Williams

Others who a good argument could be made that they are better than Traynor:

Tommy Leach
Troy Glaus
Tim Wallach
Gary Gaetti
Ken Caminiti

So, by the time of Traynor's retirement, the following players were better or a good argument could be made that they were better, than Pie Traynor:

Frank Baker
Jimmy Collins
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach

Your statement that Traynor is "better all around" than Baker and Jimmy Collins is laughably inaccurate. Collins was at least as good a hitter and far better defensively. Baker was a far better hitter and at least Traynor's equal defensively, if not slightly better.

Tom C

None of those players were better than Traynor. There is absolutely no evidence provided, although I would guess you would provide the extremely flawed OPS+. Neither Baker or Collins were in Traynor's class defensively. It is a shame that we have very incomplete data, as Traynor's greatness will be lost as more and more skeptics refuse to believe eyewitness testimony and put their faith in unscientific statistical analysis by those uneducated in the subject.

Hitting data is also incomplete, but from partial data, we know Pie was very good in clutch situations, but NO data on Baker or Collins. Pie also had a longer peak which resulted in higher counting stats as well as have a much higher BA, but you only consider that for Brooks to hate on Pie. It is truly sad that people now completely disregard the opinions of experts for opinions of the uneducated misusing statistics and analytical methods. Pie was the best 3rd baseman of the first 80-90 years of MLB and no one is close. Having a website on the internet and post contrasting opinions will never change that fact.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

None of those players were better than Traynor. There is absolutely no evidence provided, although I would guess you would provide the extremely flawed OPS+. Neither Baker or Collins were in Traynor's class defensively. It is a shame that we have very incomplete data, as Traynor's greatness will be lost as more and more skeptics refuse to believe eyewitness testimony and put their faith in unscientific statistical analysis by those uneducated in the subject.

Hitting data is also incomplete, but from partial data, we know Pie was very good in clutch situations, but NO data on Baker or Collins. Pie also had a longer peak which resulted in higher counting stats as well as have a much higher BA, but you only consider that for Brooks to hate on Pie. It is truly sad that people now completely disregard the opinions of experts for opinions of the uneducated misusing statistics and analytical methods. Pie was the best 3rd baseman of the first 80-90 years of MLB and no one is close. Having a website on the internet and post contrasting opinions will never change that fact.

Some light reading for the obviously misinformed:


http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...on/pie_traynor

http://www.hallofstats.com/player/traynpi01

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/exam...me-selections/

https://books.google.com/books?id=Xy...20fame&f=false

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...-third-basemen

[btcarfagno]

Dick Bartell on Pie Traynor:

“He had some deficiencies that you weren’t aware of unless you played next to him. When making a throw to second base he would lob the ball like a shot put instead of throwing it.”

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Additional reading for the misinformed. I particularly like the following:

"That leaves three players in the conversation with Traynor. They were Home Run Baker, Heinie Groh, and Larry Gardner. I prefer Gardner, though reasonable people could disagree with me. I also prefer Groh, and it would take a less reasonable person or less thoughtful analysis to select Traynor over Groh. And Baker? There’s no way a reasonable person could find Traynor and Baker even comparable. Baker was far and away better. To help you make up your mind, I created the below chart of guys ranked by my eqWAR at the same level at their positions as Baker and Traynor at 3B.

3B Home Run Baker Pie Traynor
C Gabby Hartnett Rick Ferrell
1B Pete Rose Harry Stovey
2B Bobby Grich Del Pratt
SS Luke Appling Dick Bartell
LF Goose Goslin Mike Smith
CF Richie Ashburn George Van Haltren
RF Reggie Jackson Brian Giles

To understand and agree with my point, you need not agree that the players above are ranked where I have them. Hell, I don’t know if I agree with my rankings. You only need to believe the player on the left is better than the player on the right."

https://homemlb.wordpress.com/2013/1...d-pie-traynor/

Tom C

[triwak]

Interesting discussion. Gives me chance to post my card (my only Traynor).