How does a new seller get into ANY major card show these days?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Over the past several months, I have completed dealer applications online for the Chantilly card show, Philadelphia card show and Strongsville card show as those respective venues suggest on each of their websites. Not only have I not gotten into anything, I have never received a response from any of the three from anyone there running these events. Needless to say, zero chance of getting into the National as a dealer so I did not even bother with that one.

Are things ever going to change here or will everything just continue to be seniority driven and the heck with everybody else. Not a good way to run a business model IMHO. Anyone else have any different experiences with any of these events as a prospective new seller?

[parkplace33]

Phil, it’s tough getting in. I recommend contacting one of the dealers already set up and see if you can buy space from them.

Prices at a lot of these shows are going up in 2024 so you might have an avenue to get in.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thank you for the input, Drew. That has always been the easiest solution. Unfortunately, the show promoters beginning with the National are shutting down that avenue by explicitly disallowing that in the dealer contracts that need to be signed. Dealer costs going up in 2024 is definitely not a plus for me, if it forces others out, will most likely keep me out as well for the same reason. Finances are tighter for me than probably just about anyone else out there looking to set up at a major show.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Thank you for the input, Drew. That has always been the easiest solution. Unfortunately, the show promoters beginning with the National are shutting down that avenue by explicitly disallowing that in the dealer contracts that need to be signed. Dealer costs going up in 2024 is definitely not a plus for me, if it forces others out, will most likely keep me out as well for the same reason. Finances are tighter for me than probably just about anyone else out there looking to set up at a major show.

It is in the contracts that subletting tables is not allowed, but it happens all the time. As previously mentioned, that is your quickest way to getting a decent table at the big shows.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The promoters should still reply to inquiries like Phil's. They can't be that busy, and they certainly aren't that important.

[philliesfan]

I am also trying to get in the Philly show.
No luck so far even though I have done it in the past.

[Exhibitman]

Did you pick up the phone? Might try that. I find that a 20th century approach is sometimes best since emails and the like are really passive in character.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I called first and that’s when I was directed to complete the application online, both Chantilly and Philly did that and I understand that it’s the same people running both. I just messaged Strongsville through their website at the end of last week to follow up on my application there. I don’t recall seeing a telephone contact number online for that one.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I called first and that’s when I was directed to complete the application online, both Chantilly and Philly did that and I understand that it’s the same people running both. I just messaged Strongsville through their website at the end of last week to follow up on my application there. I don’t recall seeing a telephone contact number online for that one.

It took me years to get into the National, and even after doing three in a row I am not guaranteed a spot 2024 as I didn't make the cut in the lottery.

It took me years to get into Strongsville as well as it is a smaller show.

I know Philly has been sold out and there is a waiting list, but I am surprised you can't get into Chantilly.

Joe Drelich is a member here, maybe reach out to him I think his user name is NCvintage

[maniac_73]

It's pretty much a money loser to display at a show anyways

[Snowman]

Did you tell them what cards you plan to sell? If you have good stuff that's in high demand, you'll generally stand a better chance.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Did you tell them what cards you plan to sell? If you have good stuff that's in high demand, you'll generally stand a better chance.

And then you can forget to bring your Wagner T206... insert smiley face here

[Kutcher55]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

It's pretty much a money loser to display at a show anyways

I was curious about this myself. There's a good local dealer I know who will go unnamed. He has 5 tables every year at the Shriners, costs almost $2K now, plus you gotta haul all that stuff around, stay at a hotel or crash with a friend in the area, cost of travel of course. This guy said he's lucky to break even, and it strikes me that a lot of these folks are in it mostly for the love of the game. Sure, a select group of people are doing well. You need to turn over a good amount of inventory to make it work. Much more $ efficient to run your business over the intranets, that's for dang sure.

I'm also surprised at how a lot of these dealers aren't really up to speed on modern ways of transferring money. Heard a dealer the other day say he didn't accept paypal or venmo. If you're gonna be slinging 5-figure plus cards at these shows you're gonna risk back problems carrying around that many Ben Franklins. It helps to have electronic means, although I can understand how cash is still preferred for obvious reasons. It's definitely old school at these shows when it comes to vintage. It's not just the cards that are vintage. It's the people and the overall scene.

[Johnny630]

Dealers from my experience at shows make their bread and butter through long time-connections, previous customers, and walk ups who bring them stuff to buy. Ever since I'd say 2014/15 with the big spike in card sales through auctions along with all the Majors Setting Up at these shows with Nice Big Booths in Prime Spots it's gotten harder and harder for these dealers to buy collections at shows from walk up's/private collectors. The auction houses get most of the goods at these shows....however sometimes connections matter and these private deals to dealers still happen, many collectors want cash, they don't want a check from auction house. In the long run though AH's usually win out due to the fact that they have been able to accomplish higher returns to the seller regardless of seller/fee's/bp ect. The good good stuff usually goes to them they also have powerhouse marketing, websites, social media, smr, ect.

[glynparson]

Honestly you wait just like many of us had to back in the late 1980s early 90s when shows were tough to get into. Many aren’t totally wrong about shows being a money loser more than winner either. Although you can make money if you whole sale or sell a lot of bargain material. $1 boxes $5 boxes etc. most high dollar cards sell online. There are some exceptions like the national but shows are generally better for buying inventory and making connections than selling.you honestly usually make more before the show starts during setup than you do once the doors open. Many often joke that shows would be better off if they just were for the dealers.

[packs]

I tend to see the same dealers with the same cards at the same shows year after year. It doesn't seem like they've sold anything in 10 years.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by packs

I tend to see the same dealers with the same cards at the same shows year after year. It doesn't seem like they've sold anything in 10 years.

So, exactly like eBay now, huh?

[packs]

More or less, really. I'm sure people do well at card shows. You just have to be realistic and people are happy to buy. But the majority of the tables I encounter are museums and tombs.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

I was curious about this myself. There's a good local dealer I know who will go unnamed. He has 5 tables every year at the Shriners, costs almost $2K now, plus you gotta haul all that stuff around, stay at a hotel or crash with a friend in the area, cost of travel of course. This guy said he's lucky to break even, and it strikes me that a lot of these folks are in it mostly for the love of the game. Sure, a select group of people are doing well. You need to turn over a good amount of inventory to make it work. Much more $ efficient to run your business over the intranets, that's for dang sure.

I'm also surprised at how a lot of these dealers aren't really up to speed on modern ways of transferring money. Heard a dealer the other day say he didn't accept paypal or venmo. If you're gonna be slinging 5-figure plus cards at these shows you're gonna risk back problems carrying around that many Ben Franklins. It helps to have electronic means, although I can understand how cash is still preferred for obvious reasons. It's definitely old school at these shows when it comes to vintage. It's not just the cards that are vintage. It's the people and the overall scene.

I truly believe most of these dealers have a ton of money and really don't need to sell at shows. Otherwise, why would they continue to set up and only break even/lose money? Makes no sense.

[packs]

You would think it's an opportunity to socialize more than anything else but I also find some dealers to be pretty standoffish at the same time.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by packs

You would think it's an opportunity to socialize more than anything else but I also find some dealers to be pretty standoffish at the same time.

Some are nice, but yes, others are standoffish and some are surly. A few months ago, I went to a show and one dealer complained the whole show. I heard him saying multiple times that he didn't have time for this "VCP BS".

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

It's pretty much a money loser to display at a show anyways

If you have good stuff and treat customers with respect and show a willingness to interact with them while they look, you will make money.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

It's pretty much a money loser to display at a show anyways

which is why you can't get in as a dealer...

[JollyElm]

Am I paraphrasing this thread correctly?

People want to set up and become dealers at shows in order to lose money, but no one's allowing them to do so?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

I was curious about this myself. There's a good local dealer I know who will go unnamed. He has 5 tables every year at the Shriners, costs almost $2K now, plus you gotta haul all that stuff around, stay at a hotel or crash with a friend in the area, cost of travel of course. This guy said he's lucky to break even, and it strikes me that a lot of these folks are in it mostly for the love of the game. Sure, a select group of people are doing well. You need to turn over a good amount of inventory to make it work. Much more $ efficient to run your business over the intranets, that's for dang sure.

I'm also surprised at how a lot of these dealers aren't really up to speed on modern ways of transferring money. Heard a dealer the other day say he didn't accept paypal or venmo. If you're gonna be slinging 5-figure plus cards at these shows you're gonna risk back problems carrying around that many Ben Franklins. It helps to have electronic means, although I can understand how cash is still preferred for obvious reasons. It's definitely old school at these shows when it comes to vintage. It's not just the cards that are vintage. It's the people and the overall scene.

I think you've uncovered the true reason without recognizing it. The reason they're setting up at shows is precisely because they can deal in all cash. These guys aren't selling online because they dont' want to deal with the taxes.

[Kutcher55]

I think the other factor someone mentioned that I agree with is the buying opportunity. The old adage that you make your money when you buy a card holds true. I always see guys trying to sell to dealers at these shows. There’s a benefit to being on the right side of the table and yes cash is always the preferred method.

The other thing I’d say is not all dealers are cut from the same cloth. There are some salty fellas at the Shriners show. That dude with the cowboy hat for example. But there are a lot of easygoing guys as well. Some are making a living and others appear to be retired guys who are for the most part hobbyists killing time in their golden years and making a buck here and there…

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Am I paraphrasing this thread correctly?

People want to set up and become dealers at shows in order to lose money, but no one's allowing them to do so?

Yup, you pretty much nailed it.

[Hankphenom]

This thread is a revelation to me. I set up at Chantilly, Philly, Tuff Stuff, and other East Coast shows for 20 years until retiring in 2016, and I never imagined that any dealer application for any of those would ever get turned away. In fact, for a long time I think it was pretty much assumed that most shows were dinosaurs that would be gone soon, surviving only because of promoter revenue from autograph guests. I'm surprised nobody has invoked the classic Yogism: "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." Maybe it turns out that people are social creatures and want something more from their collecting than sitting at a computer bidding in auctions and on eBay.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

This thread is a revelation to me. I set up at Chantilly, Philly, Tuff Stuff, and other East Coast shows for 20 years until retiring in 2016, and I never imagined that any dealer application for any of those would ever get turned away. In fact, for a long time I think it was pretty much assumed that most shows were dinosaurs that would be gone soon, surviving only because of promoter revenue from autograph guests. I'm surprised nobody has invoked the classic Yogism: "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." Maybe it turns out that people are social creatures and want something more from their collecting than sitting at a computer bidding in auctions and on eBay.

Those dinosaur dealers from when you retired in 2016 are still around

Collectors still love to see/hold cards before they buy.

[theshowandme]

Getting onto the list for Strongsville seems like an impossible task.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Getting onto the list for Strongsville seems like an impossible task.

Even in its heyday at Ft. Washington, a new dealer with decent references could set up at Bob Scmierer's famous Philly Show with no problem. Until just several years ago under Hunt, that show at Valley Forge was bleeding dealers and collectors and seemed one or two shows away from going under. Other shows have always been just a matter of filling out the application and paying the table fee. This new situation is great for the hobby, and undoubtedly portends some good new shows opening up to take up the slack.

[bcbgcbrcb]

The National is really the one that I would like to get in. But, some of the same people running that now as the Philly and Chantilly shows and I heard a two hour long interview from them on YouTube about a month or so ago. Absolutely no plans for letting new dealers set up unless a greater number of the existing dealers give up their spots. My assessment here is that the vast majority of those dealers who have been doing it for 4+ years are financially well equipped to foot the bill regardless of sales so just about all will continue to do so and nothing will change.

Travel expenses are far more tolerable to set up at a National than any of the regional shows due to attendance.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Good news, I received a response today from the Strongsville card show. Bad news, as expected, it was that the show is sold out every year as all dealers always return. On occasion, a spot may become available and then the extensive waiting list kicks in. I put my name down but am going to be 55 next month so not too optimistic that I’ll ever get to experience it.

What’s getting harder and harder to justify isn’t the travel expenses when you are setting up as a dealer at these big shows, it’s the travel expenses to simply attend the show when you cannot make any money selling to offset your costs. I don’t expect to attend many, if any, in the near future. Guess I’ll have to stick to the bargain box buying and selling at the small shows down here in central FL. I would have to travel a minimum of 10-12 hours to get to a regional show and I’m not doing it if I can’t make any money while I’m there.

[Exhibitman]

You really have to adjust your expectations of a show. If the focus is grinding money out of a mainstream slabbed collection, better to put the time into eBay listings. Local shows are best suited for all of the stuff you cannot sell and ship economically, and for hard to find and esoteric stuff that niche collectors will go for. That sort of material always sells well for me. Occasionally a good walk-up sells you something too. The nice part about that is that the expectation is not to make a retail sale to you, so there is some advantage baked into the deal.

[Hankphenom]

I'm just curious what's happened with those. For many years, I could expect a table at a good regional show to run somewhere in the $200-250 range, with a discount for multiples. What are they now?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm just curious what's happened with those. For many years, I could expect a table at a good regional show to run somewhere in the $200-250 range, with a discount for multiples. What are they now?

For a three day big show, at least $800.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

For a three day big show, at least $800.

Yikes! I really am living in the past. That's what the National used to run, how much is THAT now?

[bcbgcbrcb]

I was going to say $500 for a regular aisle table. Guess I even underestimated how much these went up. Good thing mine are only $40-$50 for the little 40-60 table shows down here that we hope will draw over 100 people in a day. Pretty tough to try and make a living this way. And dealers are complaining that attendance at the Dallas card show is down significantly…..

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Yikes! I really am living in the past. That's what the National used to run, how much is THAT now?

Around $1500

[Exhibitman]

depends on where you are, I guess. The 800 table show in Anaheim over Labor Day weekend was $600 for an 8' table for 4 days. A 2-day show in Pasadena on November 18-19 is $200 for a 6' table. A dinky local HS gym show I went to last weekend was $65 for a 6' table for 1 day.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The 800 table show in Anaheim over Labor Day weekend was $600 for an 8' table for 4 days.

Wow, 800 tables! That's almost a "West Coast National" scale show. How did it go?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Around $1500

No 0ne ever said it's cheap to set up at the National. Back when I was splitting a table, 7-8 yrs ago it was around a thousand, if I remember correctly.
.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Leon

No 0ne ever said it's cheap to set up at the National. Back when I was splitting a table, 7-8 yrs ago it was around a thousand, if I remember correctly.
.

Agree but some on this board thought it was cheaper than the current fee. I was just giving the facts.

[ncinin]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Agree but some on this board thought it was cheaper than the current fee. I was just giving the facts.

Facts are the fee for a 10X15 booth at the National is $1295, which is the best deal of any show in the business. I am shocked the fee hasn’t risen in many years, which is a testament to the cash cow the show is for the promoters.

As a point of reference the National 10X15 booth gets you two eight foot tables and one six foot table for setup day Tuesday through Sunday.

At Chantilly a 10X16 booth I pay $1400 beginning in 2024 for Thursday setup through Sunday. The last show was $1350.

Strongsville is $375 per six foot table for Thursday setup through Sunday.

March and November Chicago shows cost $495 for one eight foot table and $450 for each additional table.

For what you get the National is cheap.

[bcbgcbrcb]

The National is absolutely the best one to set up at no matter how you look at it. That’s why it’s so disappointing they can’t operate with some type of dealer rotation. I’ve been in the hobby for 40+ years and used to do some pretty significant business and am looking at the real possibility that I’ll NEVER get a chance. If the hobby suddenly tanks at some point and dealers start bailing out, who wants to get involved then? That would be of no interest to me.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ncinin

At Chantilly a 10X16 booth I pay $1400 beginning in 2024 for Thursday setup through Sunday. The last show was $1350. For what you get the National is cheap.

The National is, indeed, cheap, although travel and accommodations can add up. For many years at Chantilly I would pay $250 for an eight-foot table and open it up with two of their skinny six-foot tables on the sides and the thicker eight-footer in the back. You could grab as many tables as you wanted. That gave me a lot of table space, but you had to keep a sharp eye out for theft with customers coming into your open booth like that. I did lose a couple things over the years but nothing major.

[ncinin]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

The National is, indeed, cheap, although travel and accommodations can add up. For many years at Chantilly I would pay $250 for an eight-foot table and open it up with two of their skinny six-foot tables on the sides and the thicker eight-footer in the back. You could grab as many tables as you wanted. That gave me a lot of table space, but you had to keep a sharp eye out for theft with customers coming into your open booth like that. I did lose a couple things over the years but nothing major.

Not all booths are 10X16, just some at the front of the show.

Interior 10X10 booths are $500, Corner 10X10 booths are $650 and they charge for the extra backup tables you use.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wow, 800 tables! That's almost a "West Coast National" scale show. How did it go?

Exceeded my expectations in every way. I wrote a daily serial each day on my substack.

[Tony Gordon]

This is just the way things are… my advice is to just go with it and you will eventually get in. I was on the wait list for Strongsville and the Chicago show and was patient and eventually got in both shows. I also set up at the small regional one-day shows and enjoy them very much. Sales are inconsistent but good enough while buying is generally very good.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Exceeded my expectations in every way. I wrote a daily serial each day on my substack.

Glad to hear!

And yes, shows fill up, and it sucks not being able to get a booth. At the Net54baseball dinner this year Joe D (hi Joe), one of the Natinoal promoters, said there is a 2 yr wait for a table.
.