Another Probstein123 black eye

[esd10]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

1.How do you know if the person submitting this card to PSA was a big spender? Did the consignor submit it or did Probstein?
2. In general, what evidence do you have that big spenders get higher grades?

Psa was founded on a lie with the worst kept secret in the hobby the t206 wagner card and you dont think a person who spends tons money with psa like a auction house doesnt get a couple grading bumps for the amount of cash spent and notoriety they receive? I think they do

[Tennis13]

How do you trim a card? With some sort of high tech laser? Or is it like a cutting board sort of thing?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

How do you trim a card? With some sort of high tech laser? Or is it like a cutting board sort of thing?

I don't. Because that would be what I call "bad"


I could probably do a pretty good job of it if I really wanted to, but again, that would be "bad"

I could tell you how, but again, also " bad"

I will say that nearly any method you can use to cut paper probably has been used. And that nearly all will be relatively easy to detect as being trimming.

Don't take it wrong, I'm mostly just having a bit of fun. Lasers and cutting boards have both been used and are pretty easy to tell.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't. Because that would be what I call "bad"


I could probably do a pretty good job of it if I really wanted to, but again, that would be "bad"

I could tell you how, but again, also " bad"

I will say that nearly any method you can use to cut paper probably has been used. And that nearly all will be relatively easy to detect as being trimming.

Don't take it wrong, I'm mostly just having a bit of fun. Lasers and cutting boards have both been used and are pretty easy to tell.

I was just curious how high-tech it had gotten.....I mean, let's assume lasers are used in surgeries, and to make microchips etc.....like very, very precise. How far off are these "trimmed cards?" i mean, theoretically, could you trim it nanometers to polish up the edges, and still have it be the right size? I presume PSA etc aren't going down to the nanometer -- do they stop at the millimeter? I'm just curious -- just a very theoretical question, because it seems that if there is something "obvious" like this, there exists a spectrum in which something moves from "covert" to "obvious" and I wonder if there is a quantifiable point in which that occurs? Does that make sense?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

I was just curious how high-tech it had gotten.....I mean, let's assume lasers are used in surgeries, and to make microchips etc.....like very, very precise. How far off are these "trimmed cards?" i mean, theoretically, could you trim it nanometers to polish up the edges, and still have it be the right size? I presume PSA etc aren't going down to the nanometer -- do they stop at the millimeter? I'm just curious -- just a very theoretical question, because it seems that if there is something "obvious" like this, there exists a spectrum in which something moves from "covert" to "obvious" and I wonder if there is a quantifiable point in which that occurs? Does that make sense?

Its much more than just size, there are affects from what was used. Lasers weren't used on 1909 and the signs will tell you that. Its all bad like previous posted...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

I was just curious how high-tech it had gotten.....I mean, let's assume lasers are used in surgeries, and to make microchips etc.....like very, very precise. How far off are these "trimmed cards?" i mean, theoretically, could you trim it nanometers to polish up the edges, and still have it be the right size? I presume PSA etc aren't going down to the nanometer -- do they stop at the millimeter? I'm just curious -- just a very theoretical question, because it seems that if there is something "obvious" like this, there exists a spectrum in which something moves from "covert" to "obvious" and I wonder if there is a quantifiable point in which that occurs? Does that make sense?

Well,

Obvious would be scissors. I have a couple T206s that were cut down ages ago so someone could get then to fit a page. And that's even more common on stuff like E90-1s. Really easy to tell since most people can't cut straight for as much as an inch. (Both a sad and fortunate thing all at once I suppose)

Less obvious is exacto knife type trims. Usually intended to be deceptive. They don't duplicate any traits of a real cut. I have a couple T206s trimmed this way too. One is pretty obvious, another less so, but mistakes were made by whoever trimmed it. Even if they hadn't, it would be identifiable as trimmed.

I don't know for sure if I have any laser trimmed. The edge from that is also far different then you'd get from other cutters. And most hobby level laser cutters have fairly wide beams that leave scorching. Maybe some high end machine that does it's thing in a vacuum? But that would still leave a different edge quality under magnification.

There are a few methods that could work. But at the end of the day it's a machining process, and each different process leaves different marks. Loot at enough T206s in nice condition, and you'll eventually get to being able to spot ones cut with dull blades vs sharp. Even after 107 years.

[steve B]

Or, put another way.

Give me a decent lab with the right sort of equipment and there are probably very nearly no trims that I couldn't catch. I can probably catch 90% with the really basic stuff I have at home. (And the one I can think of that would get through is a bit scary. )

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by steve B

Or, put another way.

Give me a decent lab with the right sort of equipment and there are probably very nearly no trims that I couldn't catch. I can probably catch 90% with the really basic stuff I have at home. (And the one I can think of that would get through is a bit scary. )

Has net54 ever considered a youtube channel? Like I would love to see you catch a few cards. I am scared to death of buying a trimmed card misgraded, and you guys always talk about wavy and "look at that corner" and I have NO IDEA what I am looking at. Seriously. Zero idea. If they are graded and they arent OBVIOUS, how the heck can I find it?

[Snapolit1]

I can barely cut a coupon out of the paper without botching it. I wouldn't trust myself in a million years with scissors or razor blade to do anything but fk a card upon beyond belief.

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't. Because that would be what I call "bad"


I could probably do a pretty good job of it if I really wanted to, but again, that would be "bad"

I could tell you how, but again, also " bad"

I will say that nearly any method you can use to cut paper probably has been used. And that nearly all will be relatively easy to detect as being trimming.

Don't take it wrong, I'm mostly just having a bit of fun. Lasers and cutting boards have both been used and are pretty easy to tell.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by esd10

Psa was founded on a lie with the worst kept secret in the hobby the t206 wagner card and you dont think a person who spends tons money with psa like a auction house doesnt get a couple grading bumps for the amount of cash spent and notoriety they receive? I think they do

I can see where this would be an attractive theory, but I have yet to see any proof. When auction houses have had cards I consigned graded, the grades were no different than what I thought I would have gotten had I submitted them myself.
I think it is also safe to say that today PSA is a very different business than it was 25 years ago.