EBay / PayPal Resolution question

[T206Collector]

I was just directed by PayPal to refund a buyer for a card I sold on eBay 3 months ago. PayPal has put a hold of the sale amount on my account. If the buyer produces delivery confirmation of the returned card he gets the money. What is stopping the guy from returning an empty box to me? I am concerned the buyer is shady because he went straight to PayPal, never emailed me asking for a refund, and has not responded to any efforts by me to resolve the issue amicably.

Anyone deal with this issue before? Any advice?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

selfishly, can you hare his ID so I can block him. Unselfishly, video the opening of the package.

[D. Bergin]

Yeah, please reveal his ID. Pretty crappy that Paypal allows long term rentals for potential flippers.

Wonder how many Aaron Judge cards would make their way back to the original sellers if more buyers had less scruples about their purchases.

[T206Collector]

If I get an empty box, I will definitely out the eBay buyer (as well as file a police report). Any other tips are appreciated!

[Topnotchsy]

As someone else mentioned, I would definitely video the opening of the box. I try to do that with all expensive purchases that I make so that if an item comes damaged or it is not what it should be, I have evidence.

[edjs]

Open it at the Post Office in front of a postal employee. I do it all the time when I don't trust the shipper.

[savedfrommyspokes]

The reason the buyer opened a paypal case is because ebay only allows 30 days to open a case and receive ebay support. After 30 days, a buyer can still open a case via ebay, but the seller can simply close the case on their own(as I have had this happen). Paypal allows 180 days for a return such as this. My understanding about videoing the package opening is that paypal/ebay do not accept this, or at least that was what I was told by an ebay rep when in a similar situation a while back. However, if you do receive the empty box, as mentioned, file a police report, file a report with the USPS and finally report it to paypal. Both ebay and paypal reportedly track users who defraud others on a routine basis and they accomplish this by reports from other users. Best of luck for a smooth conclusion.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Yeah, please reveal his ID. Pretty crappy that Paypal allows long term rentals for potential flippers.

Wonder how many Aaron Judge cards would make their way back to the original sellers if more buyers had less scruples about their purchases.

I would bet many Judge cards are being returned. It is a real problem with "prospecting" modern cards. They buy the card relist it on eBay at a huge mark up and if it doesn't sell return.

[bobbyw8469]

I never forgot the advice I got from a gentleman by the name of "Gameusedhoops" on the PSA boards MANY years ago. I have an unscrupulous buyer, and sensed it because he wanted to return some 1961 Fleer PSA graded basketball cards, due to them having qualifiers (the qualifiers were clearly listed when I bid). I had no method to film the package opening, but I did open it in front of a postal employee. He confirmed that the package was empty (the buyer shipped cracked open BVG slabs, and his attempt to steal my cards was squashed.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

The reason the buyer opened a paypal case is because ebay only allows 30 days to open a case and receive ebay support. After 30 days, a buyer can still open a case via ebay, but the seller can simply close the case on their own(as I have had this happen). Paypal allows 180 days for a return such as this. My understanding about videoing the package opening is that paypal/ebay do not accept this, or at least that was what I was told by an ebay rep when in a similar situation a while back. However, if you do receive the empty box, as mentioned, file a police report, file a report with the USPS and finally report it to paypal. Both ebay and paypal reportedly track users who defraud others on a routine basis and they accomplish this by reports from other users. Best of luck for a smooth conclusion.

I believe you can open in front of the Postmaster for that particular office, if he/she will take time to do this. I know they are paying more attention to crimes of this sort, so you may get fortunate to have a sympathetic person that will devote more time. You will probably have to make an appointment to take possession of the parcel at this time i.e. during the meeting to do so. eBay and PayPal will accept Affadavits as evidence. However, I do not know how much credence they place in this form of documentation. You may have to have the form notarized as well, which would complicate things....

[bobbyw8469]

I never forgot the advice I got from a gentleman by the name of "Gameusedhoops" on the PSA boards MANY years ago. I have an unscrupulous buyer, and sensed it because he wanted to return some 1961 Fleer PSA graded basketball cards, due to them having qualifiers (the qualifiers were clearly listed when I bid). I had no method to film the package opening, but I did open it in front of a postal employee. He confirmed that the package was empty (the buyer shipped cracked open BVG slabs, and his attempt to steal my cards was squashed.

I'd videotape the opening of the box at the PO in front of a postal employee

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

would you consider PMing the username if you don't want to out him publicly?

[T206Collector]

The deadline for shipping is next week - September 1. So I should have the package within the next two weeks at the latest. I'll keep y'all posted, and if it's a scam, then I will certainly out the buyer here.

This morning I wrote the buyer another email to try to head off a potential scam:

Congratulations on winning your case. I look forward to receiving my card back. While I expect that you will faithfully adhere to the PayPal rules, based on your unwillingness to engage me via email, I hope you can appreciate that I am not comfortable with your approach here. For this reason, you should understand that I will be opening the package you send to me in front of the US Postmaster while taking a video. If the card is not returned in exactly the condition in which I sold it to you, I will pursue all appropriate legal avenues to seek restitution. Hopefully, none of that will be necessary.

I'm hoping he just has a different email address and is not just ignoring me, but I doubt it seriously. In addition to all the sketchy stuff I already mentioned, he also has 18 bid retractions in the past 12 months.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

PLEASE PM me his username, PLEASE!!!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

PLEASE PM me his username, PLEASE!!!

PM sent. But I hesitate to condemn just yet. If he sends the card back he's just moderately annoying, not a scam artist.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

PLEASE PM me his username, PLEASE!!!

Wow...Take a deep breath. I think we've reached panic mode.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

No "panic", but a guy who has acted this way AND has 18 retractions, I very seriously never want to do business with him. I won't out him as to respect OP's approach, but even if everything turns out hunky-dory, I don't want the buyer in question as a customer.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

If anyone ever wanted my blocked bidder list privately I'd share with the caveat that, while I am sure there were good reasons for each and every one, at the time, I have no idea what those reasons were anymore.

[ATP]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

PM sent. But I hesitate to condemn just yet. If he sends the card back he's just moderately annoying, not a scam artist.

is his last name Sutterfield?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ATP

is his last name Sutterfield?

Yep - eBay ID Gidez32

I'm guessing you've experienced the same quality eBay transaction with him.

[bobbyw8469]

thanks...added

[samosa4u]

You know you can get his phone number through eBay, right? I would call him up and ask him wtf he is doing.

[ATP]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Yep - eBay ID Gidez32

I'm guessing you've experienced the same quality eBay transaction with him.

Yes, he bought two items from me and opened cases on both (as well as trying to "extort" a partial refund). I did get the first item back from him okay (which was fairly expensive). He just opened the second case yesterday (it was only a $25 autograph), I am sure he will send it back as well. Hope it works out okay with yours and you get the card back.

[D. Bergin]

Wonderful. These types of buyers need to be outed, even if Ebay frowns upon it.

[D. Bergin]

Guy has been on a buying spree lately to.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Guy has been on a buying spree lately to.

Yeah, my theory is he needed money to fund his spree and decided to get his money back on my card.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Yeah, my theory is he needed money to fund his spree and decided to get his money back on my card.

My thoughts exactly.

[T206Collector]

Okay, so here's the latest. I received the "envelope" today with the supposed return and it was filled with an empty top loader with a PSA ? AUTHENTIC label on it for a different card. No return of the card itself.

So, I called PayPal. I was able to get the PayPal people on the phone to bring the case back from a decision against me to a review of the claim. I then uploaded an affidavit and a few pictures of an empty envelope. I also went to the Police Dept. here in NYC. They told me there was no crime until PayPal actually gives him the money. So no report. I'm going to try my local police office as well. We'll see what happens.

Wow, what a prick

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Wow, what a prick

+1

[D. Bergin]

Wow, that really ups the ante from very rude behavior to outright criminal behavior. Sorry to hear this. How much was the transaction for?

Guy is still buying up a storm on Ebay to.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by d. Bergin

how much was the transaction for?:

$491

[jfkheat]

Did you open the package in front of a postal employee and/o video the opening? Hopefully Paypal will find in your favor.
James

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by jfkheat

Did you open the package in front of a postal employee and/o video the opening? Hopefully Paypal will find in your favor.
James

I videoed the opening of the package. PayPal doesn't allow video to be uploaded so I had to take screen shots and upload those. But I do have that evidence, yes.

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I videoed the opening of the package. PayPal doesn't allow video to be uploaded so I had to take screen shots and upload those. But I do have that evidence, yes.

If that's not enough evidence I'm not sure what it would take to win a dispute.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Anyone else still think I was overreacting when I begged for the username?

Thanks again for sharing it!

[T206Collector]

My local PD was very helpful this afternoon. They took my statement and my documents and will create a "blotter" with it that they will let me have and which I can upload to PayPal. They also recommended sharing it with Mr. Sutterfield's local PD, particularly since he might already be known by them. Will pick up the blotter after Labor Day and call his PD after that.

Can you open anything through the US Postal service? Seem like this would fall under the umbrella of mail fraud as well

[T206Collector]

Just to close the loop on this:

I lost my appeal from PayPal, they closed the case and they released the funds to the perpetrator.

I called PayPal back, following the instructions here:

https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/contact/call

I calmly explained that I was extremely upset, and I was contacting government authorities to open a criminal and civil investigation of PayPal and the eBay user. They reversed or cancelled the decision on appeal, and re-opened the case to give me a chance to upload police reports/complaints, etc.

I uploaded the police blotter from my local PD. I then filed a complaint with the USPS and FBI (Internet Crimes Complaint Center), and uploaded a copy of the submitted complaints. If you get in the same mess, you can click either of these links to get you started. It was very straightforward.

https://www.uspsoig.gov/form/file-online-complaint

https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

I also sent the complaints directly via email to the perpetrator. And every time something would happen from these government agencies and they would send me an update on my claims, I would forward those to the perpetrator as well. I kept it as professional and non-argumentative as possible. This was my email to the guy:

"I have filed formal complaints with the FBI Internet Crime Division, the USPS Office of Inspector General, and my local police department. Copies of the FBI and USPS claims are attached. I will send you the police department blotter under separate cover. Finally, I will be uploading copies of all of the complaints on PayPal's Dispute Resolution Center landing page, and I will be sharing with your local police department in Folsam, CA."

That was it. No threats. No anger.

Two things happened almost immediately after this:

(1) I got my first ever email from the perpetrator. He wrote, "your a phyco path dude" (his grammar and spelling, not mine) and told me he was told to destroy the card by ebay and would now instead send me the card back, which he miraculously did. I believe he did not follow what ebay (purportedly) instructed him to do because he knew it was the real deal all along!

(2) PayPal refunded my money!

I don't think it is fair for me to have my card and money, too; but I really don't know what to do here, because I cannot fathom sending the card back or giving this guy his money either. The perpetrator has not been in contact with me since his email a couple of weeks ago -- he has asked for neither money nor card (I wonder if PayPal let him keep the money, and PayPal paid me out of an insurance policy or something).

Moreover, the card may actually be part of a crime, so I do think I need to hold on to it now for some period of time in case the FBI, police, or USPS OIG come looking for it. After all, I have not, and do not plan to, withdraw any of my complaints.

So, for now, I hold on to both, and await further instructions. But, I hope this post will help others handle these matters if it happens to you.

[samosa4u]

Please post this guy's address on here so I can mail him some dog poop.

[D. Bergin]

Great! Wonderful outcome for you eventually. Too bad it took so much work, hassle and time to come to this resolution.

You creating this outline with instructions in this thread may help serve as a reference point for many other Net54 members to help combat this sort of behavior in the future, if that's any consolation.

I think a lot of people would have thrown their hands up in the air and quit out of frustration before you did. Which gave this guy license to keep on doing what he was doing.

I wouldn't send that dude anything back. Likely Paypal paid him off out of their coffers, and you sending the money back would give him a double payday. I'd hold on to the card for awhile in case Paypal or somebody else wants it for evidence or compensation for the claim, similar to what you already said.

[Paul S]

Congrats on the resolution. As Dave said, a shame you had to go through all the hoops.

He lives in Folsom, CA? Give me his prison address - I'll be sure to send him some poisonous penpal mail.

[ramram]

I had a nearly identical situation several years ago. After a very long battle, I ended up finally getting a refund from Paypal and about a day later I received a refund directly from the perp after she got nervous (turned out it was a woman). So suddenly, I had my money back plus I had HER money too. I sat on it for about a month while she was going crazy and then I finally sent it back but only after enjoying having her squirm.

About a year after that I received a call from the Postal Investigation unit and the person had been arrested for having done a bunch of this. They saw my contact info in a pile on the woman's desk. Fortunately they never needed me for the trial.

Rob M

[Buythatcard]

This was an interesting post and will use it as reference next time someone pulls that on me.

I've added Gidez32 to my blocked list.

[esehombre]

I just got an offer to buy a card from this outstanding gentleman. I thought it was a fair offer and i almost accepted but figured I would do a little research to make sure he was on the up and up. Very thankful i did! haha!

Sounds like a pillar of the community. Thanks so much

[hcv123]

to my blocked user list and it says invalid user name??

[pokerplyr80]

Impressive searching skills. I often can't find a thread I saw a few days ago but this one was tracked down from almost 3 years ago.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

If I get an empty box, I will definitely out the eBay buyer (as well as file a police report). Any other tips are appreciated!

Open the box up in front of a postal employee. I was the recipient of an empty box once.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Anyone else still think I was overreacting when I begged for the username?

Thanks again for sharing it!

I don't think you were overreacting. It just saved all of us Sellers the headache of dealing with another scammer. My blocked list has grown to 346. I have a database that has the userids and the reason they are blocked.

I love when someone eMails me and asks why they are blocked. I just look up their username and send them the reason. It's usually the last time I ever hear from them.