Shipping and Insurance

[Edwolf1963]

Curious about thoughts/feedback on a couple issues as it relates to shipping and insurance.

One issue that comes up from time to time is shipping. I know that legally, a binding transaction is when BOTH parties get what the agreed upon. If one (or more) do not receive, the transaction is not complete. In eBay and other forums, language to the effect of "not responsible if lost in shipping", "not responsible if not insurance taken..", "insurance at buyers option", etc isn't worth the key-strokes. Indeed eBay/PayPal will side with the buyer in these disputes. It is a sellers responsibility to make sure the buyer receives what he/she purchased. As a seller, in a binding two-party agreement, my contract is with that buyer - not the 3rd party (USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc) My responsibility to that buyer doesn't end when it's picked up/dropped off w/the shipper - insured or not. Like most of us, I absolutely hate it if buyer says not received, but I know going in I am ultimately responsible for proving or refunding in those rare cases. I realize there are varying opinions on this and often with sound basis (especially if you've been burned by suspicious buyers/transactions) .. just know that legally, ultimately, "not responsible" language is largely untenable.

The second piece is insurance.

I have been told by UPS (and others) that just because you insure your cards for, say $500, as an example - you won't get that back if lost, stolen, damaged in shipping. Paper goods and perishables are hard to recover on - no matter what you insure them for. Which makes me wonder why insure in the first place then..? I realize there are fraud issues UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc have to contend with, and proof of value, purchase, etc should rest with the sender in cases of loss. But if they can put an asterisk next to paper/perishables, claim depreciation, book value/what you paid for it is largely immaterial - and pay you a small fraction of the value/insured amount, what's the point of insuring then..? It's an assigned risk on your part. Feels like an unregulated scam to allow them to charge for insurance and not back it in case of loss.

Curious if anyone has had any issues with this in the past..?

Thanks,

Ed

[steve B]

In my limited experience UPS is very hard to deal with at all. I had a couple items years ago that I figured on shipping UPS. One was a standup victrola that had been cut down to tabletop size, the other an obviously broken but collectable early home computer. They made me open both boxes "to see if they're packed correctly" The victrola they refused because they said it was an antique and they couldn't be sure of what it was worth, the computer they refused because it wasn't in its original styrofoam and box. When I pointed out that neither was worth even close to the $100 minimum value that all packages get and that I had auction results which are usually pretty solid proof of value - I think it was $80 for the victrola and 30 for the computer- and that the computers styrofoam was likely thrown away by a previous owner in 1983 and would have become brittle and useless anyway.. They still refused to take them falling back on the "it's policy" excuse.

The Post office took them no questions asked.

A friend of mine has had a couple claims on victrolas sent through the post office, and if it's properly packed, insured, and the value or cost of repair is provable - and they accepted the Ebay auction printout on one and an estimate from a victrola restorer/dealer on the other- They paid the claim in a reasonable time. I think they said 8 weeks and actually paid in 4-5 both times. He did have to show them the packaging of the broken one at a main post office.

If I sell something expensive I usually pick up the insurance myself. If 3-4 dollars profit on a $1-500 item is a deal breaker than I've got ot wrong already. Cheap things I usually don't insure, the post office is good enough that I'll risk a few dollars.

Steve B

[barrysloate]

Over the years I've had a few packages lost via US mail, and to their credit the post office has always reimbursed me in full. I know UPS is much tougher to deal with, but I've never put in a claim with them.

And I agree a seller is fully responsible for getting a package delivered. I think it is silly for a seller to offer optional insurance; he should either insure or add tracking to every package he ships out. If it gets lost he can't blame the buyer for not taking insurance.

As a side note I won something on ebay a few months back and after a week to ten days it still hadn't arrived. The seller assured me there would be no problem because he included tracking. But when he contacted his local post office, they were unable to track anything. They had no clue where the package was. Finally, after seventeen days it arrived. But the tracking service is worthless.

[mdschulze]

My first and last experience with UPS was about 8 months ago. I sold a limited edition framed print on Ebay and needed to ship to California. I had the item professionally packaged and insured the item for $300 (Item sold for $225 plus $25 shipping).

Once the package arrived, I received an email from the buyer stating that the package had a hole through it and she could hear glass moving around inside. After opening the package, the frame was broken and the shards of glass had scratched the print. After about 8 weeks, I received a refund for about $218 (not exact total). UPS explained that the $18 was for the shipping costs and their value of the print, $200. I lost $32 out of the deal and 8 weeks wait time. I appealed their decision and was declined based on their theory of what they thought the print was worth (even though I insured for more than the amount). I'll never use their services again.

[Gradedcardman]

About 6 months ago, I began to have a series of "product not received" emails via product sold through eBay. I began to ship everything with delivery confirmation. From that moment on I have had NO claims against me when shipping with the delivery confirmation.

Currently the biggest issue I have is non-paying bidders. They have feedback as high as 3000 positive. Sellers have no recourse except to relist. Not fun but part of the game.

Regards,
Adam

[ChiefBenderForever]

UPS sucks period. They throw packages where ever and don't even look at the door number or address. I will never forgive them for giving $5000.00 of electronics to someone else and having record they dropped it off on my doorstep while I was at home waiting. I had no recourse, no help, and will hate them for ever and never use them again, UPS sucks !

[carrigansghost]

I sent a package with a D381 card in it to a fellow board member on May 9th insured for $150. He emailed me the other day with no reciept yet. I ask the PO for any info and they could only tell me that it was scanned in the person's home state. They asked if I could return next Monday to see if they could get any more info. The other two packages mailed that morning were received in two days.

Should I start to worry?

Rawn

[HexsHeroes]

.
Within the past year, for any package sent to me that requires a signature, I have had to request that it be sent to me via FedEx, instead of U.S.P.S.

My workday begins before the local branch opens, and ends after they close. My branch no longer has weekend hours, and it is (now) against policy to have a package forwarded from one branch to another. Since I commute an hour to work, lunch hour visits to the post office are out of the question. My neighbors all work, so no on is around to sign as my agent. And living very near the local high school (and having occassionally been victimized by some rowdy/questionable behavior and pranks), I am hesitant to sign and have the package left on my doorstep. FedEx has four local service branches, with open hours until 11-PM. Perfect remedy for my situation.

[jezzeaepi]

If you are going to buy insurance, then do it through the post office. UPS and Fedex both suck when it comes to paying out claims in my experience.

Ups-I used to work at a UPS store(independent reseller of UPS services) and had to work as the liaison between the customer(who's package got broken) and UPS(who broke the package). No matter how cut and dry the case was, they never paid without a ton of effort. We had a customers package that were literally run over by a truck(the package was flattened) and they still gave us a hard time about if it was "packaged" well enough. We package them well enough to be thrown off a truck, but not to be run over by one...

Fedex- Have been fighting them, and the independent reseller who sold me the insurance for 4 months over a $3200 claim where they delivered my package to the wrong building.

Moral of the story, Fedex and ups insurance aren't worth the hassle if you can avoid it.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by mdschulze

I'll never use their services again.

That's a pretty childish reaction. They are very clear that they will only pay out what an item is worth. Same as your homeowners policy and automobile policy. If you buy more than fair value you are wasting your money.

BTW, check your homeowners policy and look to adjust it. Mine had a home valuation from 4-5 years ago and I was able to reduce it and save $200 per year.

[chaddurbin]

UPS is GAI, fedex is PSA....usps is SGC (taking service, performance, and customer service into consideration).

[mdschulze]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

That's a pretty childish reaction. They are very clear that they will only pay out what an item is worth. Same as your homeowners policy and automobile policy. If you buy more than fair value you are wasting your money.

BTW, check your homeowners policy and look to adjust it. Mine had a home valuation from 4-5 years ago and I was able to reduce it and save $200 per year.

My question is... how do they know what my item was worth? There had been no similar sale on Ebay nor in any other auction (that I could find). I had printed proof of what someone was willing to pay for it an auction setting. UPS told me that this was their best estimate.... but could not provide any evidence, just their best estimate. I declared the exact amount (minus shipping costs) at the time of shipping and they gladly took my money for insurance of $300. They allowed me to over-insure but they wouldn't pay the full amount... for their mistake. Childish as it may be... I won't use their services anymore. Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice..... won't happen again!

BTW... thanks for the tip on homeowner's insurance.... that's something I hadn't thought of. It's been 4 years since I've been in my house as well... Thanks. -Mike