rarest backs

[darwinbulldog]

Lately I've become more interested in rare back variations on otherwise common cards. "Otherwise common" spans a wide range, but in general I'm thinking of cards that carry an ACC designation and that one can generally find at least one example of on eBay at any given moment. I'd like to invite the type collectors and anyone else to edit my first stab at a listing of these rare backs with common fronts -- and, if so inclined, to estimate how many total examples of the rare back exist and/or what proportion of all the cards in the set have that particular back. Are there some that I should drop from this list? Some I should add (assuredly yes)? And what are the toughest E94 and T212 backs? Are any of the T212 back ads so rare that they should be listed here?

E94 (?)
E98 Old Put
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Holmes to Homes, Mall Theater
T206 Old Mill (blue)
"T206" Ty Cobb
T207 Red Cross
T212 (?)
T216 Virginia Extra
W502 Greiners
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey Ice Cream
W551 Wool's American Maid Bread
W573 Cafe du Monde
W575 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's

[obcmac]

If we're putting fake backs on the list, it's going to be quite the list ;-)

[Sean]

Are you referring to the "blue" Old Mill?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by obcmac

If we're putting fake backs on the list, it's going to be quite the list ;-)

Blue Old Mill might be debatable. I don't think I see any others that are questionable? However the OP says the backs might be found on ebay at any given time? That list is not those....

and as for Greiners, I think of them more as F-Unc but who am I to say? There are very low known populations of most of those..E94 has 10 different overprints known plus a few very minor variations.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Blue Old Mill might be debatable. I don't think I see any others that are questionable? However the OP says the backs might be found on ebay at any given time? That list is not those....

No, the fronts. You can, right now, find an E94, an E98, a T206, a T216, etc. on eBay.

[Seiklis]

T215-2 Pirate
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Blank back
T205 Blank Back

Few more you're missing

Far as I know the closest you'll get to a rare T212 is the T212-2 150 cards but there could be rarer backs I don't know about

[wazoo]

This one

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Seiklis

T215-2 Pirate
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Blank back
T205 Blank Back

Few more you're missing

Far as I know the closest you'll get to a rare T212 is the T212-2 150 cards but there could be rarer backs I don't know about

Thank you.

A T215 Pirate is almost as common as a T215 Red Cross, isn't it? That's why I left them off.

T213-3 overprint might be a good addition, depending on whether the comparison set is T213 altogether or just T213-3, but my inclination would be to use T213-3 since it was issued so much later, as opposed to just being a different style printed in the same year.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

No, the fronts. You can, right now, find an E94, an E98, a T206, a T216, etc. on eBay.

Gotcha on the fronts. I didn't understand the question. Yes, most of the fronts are fairly common..

[atx840]

Fun thread. Would love to see some tough examples.

[darwinbulldog]

If we limit it to cards that have a cataloged front, comprise less than 1% of the cataloged set's total population, and of which fewer than 50 examples with the rare back are known to exist, what should we add or subtract from this group? (Let's also omit the blank backs and supplements and blue Old Mill for now.)


E98 Old Put
E121 Kings
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Holmes to Homes, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T206 Old Mill (brown)
T206 Lenox (brown)
T206 Broad Leaf 460
"T206" Ty Cobb
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's

[bn2cardz]

t205 Hindu

[smtjoy]

Im not sure what the other M101-4/5 collectors think but I dont put the Haserot's back in the same category as the others as its a stamped back not a printed back. Its a very cool card but I would not put it as an official back.

Some exhibit stamped backs-

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

If we limit it to cards that have a cataloged front, comprise less than 1% of the cataloged set's total population, and of which fewer than 50 examples with the rare back are known to exist, what should we add or subtract from this group? (Let's also omit the blank backs and supplements and blue Old Mill for now.)


E98 Old Put
E121 Kings
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Holmes to Homes, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T206 Old Mill (brown)
T206 Lenox (brown)
T206 Broad Leaf 460
"T206" Ty Cobb
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's

I think T213-1's should be added. I surmise there are less than 50 of each.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

I think T213-1's should be added. I surmise there are less than 50 of each.

Even so, they're about 50 times too plentiful for what I'm trying to list.

[ValKehl]

There also exists a W575-1 with the Leader Theatre back. I don't have one in my type collection to show (wish I did!), but Leon shows one in his fabulous type collection, which anyone can view by clicking on "VINTAGE LINKS" at the top of the page.
Val

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Even so, they're about 50 times too plentiful for what I'm trying to list.

"50" is not the population number of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards. Unless many, many more are discovered.

It's very much less, as the following illustrates......


6 known......
....................



5 known......
....................



4 known......
....................




Known cards............... 5 .................................................. ...................... 4 .................................................. .................. 4





Furthermore, similar population numbers exist for the 62 other subjects in this 1910 COUPON set.

Therefore, darwinbulldog, you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Dean Hackett's suggestion (in Post #35) regarding these T213-1 cards.
There are less of these known than the 13 (or 14) examples of the Ty Cobb card with the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco back on your list.


TED Z
.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by tedzan

"50" is not the population number of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards. Unless many, many more are discovered.

It's very much less, as the following illustrates......


6 known......
....................



5 known......
....................



4 known......
....................




Known cards............... 5 .................................................. ...................... 4 .................................................. .................. 4





Furthermore, similar population numbers exist for the 62 other subjects in this 1910 COUPON set.

Therefore, darwinbulldog, you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Dean Hackett's suggestion (in Post #35) regarding these T213-1 cards.
There are less of these known than the 13 (or 14) examples of the Ty Cobb card with the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco back on your list.


TED Z
.

By my estimation, 68 times 4 is more than 13. Even more than 50 probably.

[ValKehl]

I may be wrong, but I think there are less than 50 E222 A.W.H Caramel cards known to exist.
Val

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I may be wrong, but I think there are less than 50 E222 A.W.H Caramel cards known to exist.
Val

I don't think there's enough of an AWH vs. AWA discrepancy to qualify. That is, neither one of them is less than 1% of the E222 population.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

if we limit it to cards that have a cataloged front, comprise less than 1% of the cataloged set's total population, and of which fewer than 50 examples with the rare back are known to exist, what should we add or subtract from this group? (let's also omit the blank backs and supplements and blue old mill for now.)


e98 old put
e121 kings
m101-4/5 everybody's, haserot's, holmes to homes, mall theater
r316 douglas park, morton, rialto
t206 old mill (brown)
t206 lenox (brown)
t206 broad leaf 460
"t206" ty cobb
t207 red cross
t213-3 overprint
t216 virginia extra
w514 hendler's, barker
w515 fleer, jersey
w551 wool's
w573/e120 cafe du monde, cream nut, kings, leader theatre
w575 johnson, haffner's, clark's, gassler's

t214

[ullmandds]

d303...esp mothers bread.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Lately I've become more interested in rare back variations on otherwise common cards. "Otherwise common" spans a wide range, but in general I'm thinking of cards that carry an ACC designation and that one can generally find at least one example of on eBay at any given moment. I'd like to invite the type collectors and anyone else to edit my first stab at a listing of these rare backs with common fronts -- and, if so inclined, to estimate how many total examples of the rare back exist and/or what proportion of all the cards in the set have that particular back. Are there some that I should drop from this list? Some I should add (assuredly yes)? And what are the toughest E94 and T212 backs? Are any of the T212 back ads so rare that they should be listed here?

Currently, there are 241 cards listed on Ebay under the T213 category. These 241 cards are a combination of either T213-2's or T213-3's.

There are ZERO ! ....NADA ! ....ZILCH ! 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards listed. And, if you bother to check the ebay T213 listing on a weekly
basis, you will see this same pattern. Rarely, will a T213-1 pop up.

Therefore, per your stated "RAREST QUALIFICATION" in your 1st post here, the T213-1 back should indeed be considered in your "rarest" list.



Furthermore,
you include BROAD LEAF 460 back in your list. Well, 27 different T206 subjects have been confirmed with BL 460. To date, total population
of T206's with this back exceeds 50 cards. Not that much of a difference when comparing them to the population of T213-1 cards.


TED Z
.

[darwinbulldog]

Furthermore,
you include BROAD LEAF 460 back in your list. Well, 27 different T206 subjects have been confirmed with BL 460. To date, total population
of T206's with this back exceeds 50 cards. Not that much of a difference when comparing them to the population of T213-1 cards.


TED Z
.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure you're right about BL 460. I'll take that off my list in my next update. Thanks. T213-1 is still too common for my purposes.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

T206 Old Mill (blue)

Makes Scooby sound. Huh?

The 3 rarest T206 backs, besides the Ty Cobb back, which is exclusive to the Georgia Peach himself, I thought were:

1. Brown Old Mill
2. Lennox Brown
3. Drum
3a. Broad Leaf 460 subjects

I don't remember an Old Mill blue being confirmed. Did I miss something?

[Kenny Cole]

What about Billikens with a La Moda back? Bilikens with common backs are pretty scarce themselves, but those with La Moda backs probably comprise a very small fraction of the known population -- significantly less than 10% I would guesstimate.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Makes Scooby sound. Huh?

The 3 rarest T206 backs, besides the Ty Cobb back, which is exclusive to the Georgia Peach himself, I thought were:

1. Brown Old Mill
2. Lennox Brown
3. Drum
3a. Broad Leaf 460 subjects

I don't remember an Old Mill blue being confirmed. Did I miss something?

Bill, it was slightly before your time.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=154721

[darwinbulldog]

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

[nolemmings]

I hate to be a pest, but using your criteria from post #32, you should delete m101-4 Everybody's too, as more than 50 examples exist. Also, I am among those who have yet to acknowledge Haserot's as a true back variation, FWIW.

As for Gertenrich, I'll leave the populations for others to report, but I too have a Walker SGC 40 that has no back damage. If you are declaring it scarce only when it has no back damage, then you'd better re-add Holmes to Homes as well, for although the pop reports show 70 graded, only nine of those are better than poor.

[darwinbulldog]

That's not being a pest at all; this is the feedback I want. I don't care about condition, so Holmes to Homes stays off the list. Is your objection to Haserot's just that it's a stamp (which I'm okay with) as opposed to all the other tough M101-4/5 backs, or that you suspect the stamp wasn't added until many years after the card was issued?

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
M101-4/5 Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Makes Scooby sound. Huh?

The 3 rarest T206 backs, besides the Ty Cobb back, which is exclusive to the Georgia Peach himself, I thought were:

1. Brown Old Mill
2. Lennox Brown
3. Drum
3a. Broad Leaf 460 subjects

I don't remember an Old Mill blue being confirmed. Did I miss something?

Depends on what you mean by confirmed I guess. It's good enough for SGC anyway.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_130.html