AH Blues

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe from an accounting perspective it makes it simpler to keep track of what you pay the consignor and what you keep, than having to calculate percentages of the hammer price in a seller's fee world, but I really don't know or care. You have to do it one way or the other and it comes out to the same thing. Unless of course you think AHs should not take in any money.

Why don't you explain to us why you, knowing a premium is going to be added to your bid and presumably taking that into account like the overwhelming majority of people, care what convention is used for the AH's cut?

You're making a bold assumption that every winning bid is suppressed by the exact amount of the buyer's premium in every instance. Dollar for dollar. Percentage point for percentage point. BP equals 20%...High bid is suppressed 20%. BP 10%...High bid supressed 10%.

While the BP does suppress bidding. I don't think it's close to a dollar for dollar match....and the discrepancy there is borne by the buyer...not the seller.

And therefore it's not the same. It's additional.

Except for you and a few of your cronies. Who abide by the 20% off rule when determining your high bid...every time...without fail.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Except for you and a few of your cronies. Who abide by the 20% off rule when determining your high bid...every time...without fail.

Comic gold!!!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Comic gold!!!

You can't make this stuff up. No one would believe you. LOL

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

You're making a bold assumption that every winning bid is suppressed by the exact amount of the buyer's premium in every instance. Dollar for dollar. Percentage point for percentage point. BP equals 20%...High bid is suppressed 20%. BP 10%...High bid supressed 10%.

While the BP does suppress bidding. I don't think it's close to a dollar for dollar match....and the discrepancy there is borne by the buyer...not the seller.

And therefore it's not the same. It's additional.

Except for you and a few of your cronies. Who abide by the 20% off rule when determining your high bid...every time...without fail.

It is never additional in my case. If I am willing to pay 1000 for a card, I will snipe at 1000 (including shipping) on Ebay. If I get the card fine, if not fine. With an AH, I see where the next position is. If it is under 1000(with BP and estimated shipping), I will place the bid. If it is more than 1000, I am done. It is really not that hard. I am not bidding 1000 and then being surprised that I have to pay 1200 plus shipping. It may not work out dollar for dollar, but it is pretty close.

[Leon]

Looney logic if I have ever heard it.

When was the last time a fee was "surprised on you" mid auction? Otherwise, unless you can't read the rules, there are no surprises. Most collectors figure out how to add the 20% to their bid BEFORE the AH does it for them once the lot is closed to bids. Adding 20% (or whatever the BP is) is not that easy I guess....for some. I have bid in hundreds if not thousands of AH auctions and haven't been surprised by the BP yet.

Originally Posted by rats60

It is never additional in my case. If I am willing to pay 1000 for a card, I will snipe at 1000 (including shipping) on Ebay. If I get the card fine, if not fine. With an AH, I see where the next position is. If it is under 1000(with BP and estimated shipping), I will place the bid. If it is more than 1000, I am done. It is really not that hard. I am not bidding 1000 and then being surprised that I have to pay 1200 plus shipping. It may not work out dollar for dollar, but it is pretty close.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Leon

Looney logic if I have ever heard it.

When was the last time a fee was "surprised on you" mid auction? Otherwise, unless you can't read the rules, there are no surprises. Most collectors figure out how to add the 20% to their bid BEFORE the AH does it for them once the lot is closed to bids. Adding 20% (or whatever the BP is) is not that easy I guess....for some. I have bid in hundreds if not thousands of AH auctions and haven't been surprised by the BP yet.

The only time I've ever been surprised in my bidding history is with shipping a time or two.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Leon

Looney logic if I have ever heard it.

When was the last time a fee was "surprised on you" mid auction? Otherwise, unless you can't read the rules, there are no surprises. Most collectors figure out how to add the 20% to their bid BEFORE the AH does it for them once the lot is closed to bids. Adding 20% (or whatever the BP is) is not that easy I guess....for some. I have bid in hundreds if not thousands of AH auctions and haven't been surprised by the BP yet.

How is it Looney logic? If I want to pay 1000, I am not paying more no matter the platform or format.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rats60

How is it Looney logic? If I want to pay 1000, I am not paying more no matter the platform or format.

Perfect. Then you bid up to the amount where you will spend $1000 with whatever fee(s) included. Problem solved. I think you are making it more difficult than it needs to be. A lot of us say to ourselves "I am not going over xx amount" then we deduct the fee pecentage and that is what we bid (assuming we are also understanding there are usually shipping charges to be thrown in too). If you can spend a $1000 then just bid up to $800......then add the Buyers Premium, which is usually 20% to your $800 bid, and that is $960, which leaves $40 for shipping.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Perfect. Then you bid up to the amount where you will $1000 with whatever fee(s) included. Problem solved. I think you are making it more difficult than it needs to be. A lot of us say to ourselves "I am not going over xx amount" then we deduct the fee pecentage and that, and that is what we bid (assuming we are also understanding there are usually shipping charges to be thrown in too). If you can spend a $1000 then just bid up to $800......add the Buyers Premium, which is usually 20% to your $800 bid, and that is $960, which leaves $40 for shipping.

I think you guys are in agreement, not disagreement?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think you guys are in agreement, not disagreement?

Yeah, I think I am arguing with myself. Back to doing some chores ....

[Fballguy]

And there it is. "A lot" Not all...as some assume. At least Leon is being realistic.

A lot probably do...especially those on this forum. And just as true...a lot probably don't. They bid to win and then endure the BP afterwards.

I think some of you have conformed your logic to fit in with the old school auction rules. "This is the way it is, so how can I rationalize it in a way that makes it more palatable?".

Funny...I looked up the definition of bid. It's the offer of a certain price for something. Didn't see anything in there about multiplying by 1.2 to get to that price.

Originally Posted by Leon

Perfect. Then you bid up to the amount where you will spend $1000 with whatever fee(s) included. Problem solved. I think you are making it more difficult than it needs to be. A lot of us say to ourselves "I am not going over xx amount" then we deduct the fee pecentage and that is what we bid (assuming we are also understanding there are usually shipping charges to be thrown in too). If you can spend a $1000 then just bid up to $800......then add the Buyers Premium, which is usually 20% to your $800 bid, and that is $960, which leaves $40 for shipping.

[TanksAndSpartans]

This is actually an interesting academic question. Economics 101 would certainly tell you its completely irrational to behave differently because in one case the amount you pay is what you bid (plus shipping) and in the other case the amount you pay is what you bid + 20% + shipping. The rational thing to do is make the calculation of adding the BP and behave (bid) the same way in both cases (i.e. reduce your bid because you know you will be hit with a BP at checkout). Someone would need to do a study to see if people actually behave according to the theory or whether the fact that that 20% in not included in their bid induces them to pay more as if they are willing to momentarily forget they will be charged the 20% later. It's entirely possible, and also the reason I believe some auction houses want you to have to do the math in your head (or not do it), rather than show you the BP when you place your bid. I think its something called the framing effect where people view options that are really the same as different depending on how they are stated.

One minor point is because the bid increments are wider for AHs than eBay, sometimes I have to make a decision whether I want to go under or over my target - something I never really have to do on eBay where the bid increments are very narrow.

[frankbmd]

Let’s say you have a new home with a smallish garage and a full size car.
You are bidding to park the car in the garage. You estimate where the center of the garage is on the back wall of the garage. You aim correctly and end up scratching the right side of the vehicle, which then must be repaired. You are surprised at the cost of placing your bid to park the car and incurring the parker’s Premium.

When completed, you pick up the car and bring it home. It needs to be parked in the garage. Do you follow the exact same process to park the car and repeat getting the same result necessitating another visit to the body shop or do you make an adjustment to your aiming point and move it the required distance to the left, which results in the car not being scratched on the right side.

On the third day do you repeat the unsuccessful process of the first day or the successful process of the second day? If you answer the former, I cannot help you. If you answer the latter, congratulations. You have learned the impact of the buyer’s premium on your bid to park the car.

Being surprised by an auction house invoice, due to naïveté, not reading the rules, or whatever, could conceivably happen once to anyone. But if you are continually “surprised” by invoices, you either need a smaller car, better reading glasses, or a home without a garage. You might also consider a membership in the Audubon Society as an alternative hobby.

Hope this helps.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

You're making a bold assumption that every winning bid is suppressed by the exact amount of the buyer's premium in every instance. Dollar for dollar. Percentage point for percentage point. BP equals 20%...High bid is suppressed 20%. BP 10%...High bid supressed 10%.

While the BP does suppress bidding. I don't think it's close to a dollar for dollar match....and the discrepancy there is borne by the buyer...not the seller.

And therefore it's not the same. It's additional.

Except for you and a few of your cronies. Who abide by the 20% off rule when determining your high bid...every time...without fail.

You raise up your head and you ask, "Is this where it is?"
And somebody points to you and says, "It's his"
And you say, "What's mine?" and somebody else says, "Well, what is?"
And you say, "Oh my God, am I here all alone?"
But something is happening and you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You raise up your head and you ask, "Is this where it is?"
And somebody points to you and says, "It's his"
And you say, "What's mine?" and somebody else says, "Well, what is?"
And you say, "Oh my God, am I here all alone?"
But something is happening and you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?

If the value of your humor had a 20% BP, I'd have nothing to complain about.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

If the value of your humor had a 20% BP, I'd have nothing to complain about.

Imagine the obvious response -- change humor to -----.