Just how much does condition affect value?

[jasonc]

I always wondered this and it has been discussed before, but haven't really seen anything in detail. If a card is really beat up, multiple creases, soft corners, maybe some writing, paper loss, how would you value a card like this?

One thing I've noticed is the T206 cards, and some 50's topps cards that are in demand usually somebody is still willing to pay about 20 to 30 percent of book. If the card is not in demand then sometimes it is hard to sell for 5% of book.

I know in the past, questions are posed on whether YOU would buy a card like this, but what kind of value would the card be worth.

Personally, if it's a card I want and it is vintage, I am willing to pay a decent percentage of BV for the card. I know because it is "vintage" condition is expected to be a little less then some of the newer cards.

This post would be in regard to raw cards, but I suppose graded could be in the equation when it comes to how much would you pay.

The thing about beat up cards, is the collector has the advantage, because somebody on a budget can put together a collection they enjoy. The thing is though for me, is I shop around for cards that are not beat up too much, but I have a maximum that I am willing to pay. I think it makes buying cards interesting.

Interested in hearing people's thoughts when it comes to value whether the card is trimmed (but sharp corners, good eye appeal), a good centered card but major creases etc. etc. etc.

[seablaster]

Jason, I think your post touches on something important. I think it all depends on what you collect.

There are collectors on this board who purportedly have been searching for specific cards for decades. When a copy turns up, no matter how badly conditioned, I'm sure they'd be happy to own it.

There are just some sets out there that finding specific players is extremely difficult so condition becomes significantly less of an issue.

On the other hand, it also depends on the number of people actively pursuing the set. Your own example of T206 illustrates that. Whether gem mint or roached, there will be a buyer for any individual T206 card. A wide range of price results however.

The more available a certain issue is, the more scrutiny they undergo, as another example is right around the corner.

[Bestdj777]

It really depends on what you consider book value and what particular card you are talking about. I like lower grade cards and will pay what I need to for a particular card. For rarer cards, that often ends up being a higher percentage of the book value. For lower, it is a much lower percentage

It also depends on what the condition issue is. If I am buying a Venezuelan issue, I don't mind paying a higher percentage for something with back damage. But, if a kid drew on a player's face, I won't touch it unless I really need it and its basically being given away.

I would think, supply and demand, the known pre-existing conditions of the card or cards from a set or being the first card in the set.

[Leon]

The more I need or want the card the less the condition I will accept, especially for super rare ones. If it is a fairly common card then I want one with great eye appeal. I am not worried about technical grades and would just as soon have all of my cards look ex+ but be in 1-2 holders (if graded).

[ullmandds]

I agree w/leon 100% on this one.

This was a tough thing to get used to...for me...having to settle for beaters at times.

I used to disagree with The phrase..."its better to have a hole in my card...than a hole in my collection"...not anymore!

[thehoodedcoder]

condition doesn't affect value. supply and demand does. how many people want the card in that condition and what are they willing to pay for it?

kevin

[obcmac]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

condition doesn't affect value. supply and demand does. how many people want the card in that condition and what are they willing to pay for it?

kevin

Well, condition directly impacts demand, so it does affect value. As for collecting...I always describe myself as a low to ultra-low grade collector. I don't know that I've ever not bought a card for condition reasons...only for price reasons. I don't collect memorabilia at all, but I understand that people want their game used stuff to look game used...that's sort of the way I feel about cards. Cracker Jacks are a good example...I want them to look like they came out of a box of cracker jack.

To get back to the question...condition is much more important on cards that are easy to find. VG may get you 10-20% of book in common post-war and poors may get 50-1000% of book in rare pre-wars.

[drcy]

A really beat up example of a premo card, like a 1933 Goudey Ruth or 52 Topps Mantle, can sell for a surprising amount of money. I figure that, for those on a limited collecting budget, they consider it their rare chance to own a dream card like that.

[Republicaninmass]

Seems like some, if not most autographed cards 1952 and earlier sell for the same price regardless of grade. If it is a tough one I dont have or have never seen, generally condition doesnt matter

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by obcmac

Well, condition directly impacts demand, so it does affect value. As for collecting...I always describe myself as a low to ultra-low grade collector. I don't know that I've ever not bought a card for condition reasons...only for price reasons. I don't collect memorabilia at all, but I understand that people want their game used stuff to look game used...that's sort of the way I feel about cards. Cracker Jacks are a good example...I want them to look like they came out of a box of cracker jack.

To get back to the question...condition is much more important on cards that are easy to find. VG may get you 10-20% of book in common post-war and poors may get 50-1000% of book in rare pre-wars.

i disagree. most people would love to have a higher grade card, if they could afford it. more people want a nicer card, then a lower grade card. that is why nicer cards go for more money. they are more desirable.

the price, affects demand at that price. the condition that they buy is a bi product of the supply and demand curve with respect to the price at the given condition.

there are however, people that believe beaters have character. so obviously it needs to be said, that not everyone thinks the same way. your example of a rare prewar card and the value for it, is really driven by the number of them. the fact that they are rare, and the number of people want them, is high when compared to the quantities.

as an extreme example and also highly unlikely: a card could be very very rare, if no one will buy the card, then its 'worthless'. you can't sell it or trade it, and consequently it has no value.

kevin

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

more people want a nicer card, then a lower grade card.
kevin

I don't know of many people who have a nice example of card that get a lesser condition example of the same card unless they are hoarding. Does this really happen?

[obcmac]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

the price, affects demand at that price. the condition that they buy is a bi product of the supply and demand curve with respect to the price at the given condition.

kevin

I think that's technically incorrect. Price impacts quantity demanded, not demand. If you change the condition of the card, you're technically shifting the demand curve out, not moving along the demand curve. Where you draw the demand curve depends on many things, but one of those things is condition. If you're thinking of the intersection of supply and demand determining price, a higher grade card has a demand curve to the right of a lower grade card (greater quantity demanded at all prices).

[MattyC]

This is an interesting discussion, and I think it is important to define a key term here; by "condition," are we meaning "grade assigned by a TPG?"

Because then I would very respectfully offer a counterpoint to these two statements above:

1. "...most people would love to have a higher grade card, if they could afford it."

2. "I don't know of many people who have a nice example of card that get a lesser condition example of the same card unless they are hoarding. Does this really happen?"

I can afford higher grade examples of every card I own, but I choose not to upgrade when I have an example that has great eye appeal-- especially when that eye appeal exceeds the given grade.

When centering and eye appeal are there for me, I see no reason to spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for an upgrade of corners or edges. I am an eye appeal guy all the way, which condition factors into, but primarily (for me) hinges upon clarity of central image and centering.

If we are indeed talking about a TPG's assigned grade when we say condition, I find myself most impressed with collectors who find a 5-grade card that looks like a 7-grade.

As to downgrading to a lesser condition card, again I think it all depends on what one means by condition. I have downgraded 9s that had poor centering to 8s or 8.5s or in some cases 7s that, to me, looked far superior in terms of eye appeal to the 9.

So I guess the salient point for me is that sometimes eye appeal, technical condition, and a TPG's assessment of condition are not all equal. Really cool topic.

[1880nonsports]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

I don't know of many people who have a nice example of card that get a lesser condition example of the same card unless they are hoarding. Does this really happen?

for any number of reasons I have graded cards in my collection that I look to DOWNGRADE - uniformity, minor fears of altered very high grade cards, I can appreciate an "EX" card, and nmt or better N cards sell for big bucks. Often I can buy 2/3 ex/exmt cards to complete a set for the price of nmt card.

[aelefson]

I think Mike was referring to another poster's use of then, as opposed to than. Back on topic, I prefer low graded cards (trimmed, tears, paper loss, holes, whatever) as I can collect more of what I want that way.

As to value, it always depends on rarity, but also the type of card itself, and whether or not a card is graded by a grading company. For example, Old Judges with back writing are technically lower grade, but most OJ collectors care very little about the state of the back (other than if it is skinned or re-backed). Much more important is the clarity of the image on the front of the card. To the grading companies, a weak front image and a clean back earns a higher grade than a strong front and writing on the back.

Alan

[bbcard1]

For my T206 set, I decided to go with a nice set that I hope to eventually upgrade to an average of about a 2.5. I am probably happy with the scarce variations in a decent 1. I am always in the process of upgrading. Though I have finished up my 520 set, I probably only have maybe five cards that would go a 5 or better (Shag, Ryan, Young throwing, and a couple of commons), but wear on a T206 set looks appropriate in my opinion. I am working on a 1961 set and am no settling for anything less than ex. For some reason, that set only looks nice to me in a nice grade.

[Exhibitman]

I collect almost exclusively in low grade.

There isn't really a hard and fast rule you can make for how they price out. If you are referring to a mainstream card that can be readily located in a variety of conditions then the cards are virtually worthless except for the superstars, who can be had for less than 10% of the price of a near mint version if you are willing to wait a bit. I try to pay even less, just to make it interesting. Like a beater T206 red bg Cobb. I waited for quite a while until I found one for around $100 less than 'market' and bought it. 'Junk' boxes at the National can yield even better deals. Also depends on how FUBARed you are willing to get with a card.

There is no rule on pricing true rarities. It is strictly what the buyer will pay. I pick a price I would like to get for a card like that and tell prospective buyers who want to dicker about it if you can find the card somewhere else, buy it.

[E93]

Of course condition affects value. Look in any price guide and see how values change depending on condition. That said, the effect of condition on value goes down in relative proportion to the scarcity and general desirability of the card. In other words, if it is hard to find in any condition, then condition matters less to most buyers.
JimB

[ullmandds]

Agreed Jim...and well stated. To say condition has no bearing on value is ludicrous!

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by obcmac

I think that's technically incorrect. Price impacts quantity demanded, not demand. If you change the condition of the card, you're technically shifting the demand curve out, not moving along the demand curve. Where you draw the demand curve depends on many things, but one of those things is condition. If you're thinking of the intersection of supply and demand determining price, a higher grade card has a demand curve to the right of a lower grade card (greater quantity demanded at all prices).

sorry, yes. you are right. quantity demanded was the right wording. many moons have passed since those days.

its a more dynamic problem than that. if you have a card in prestine condition and no one wants to buy it, then its worthless. if you have the exact same card in terrible condition and no one wants to buy it then the its worthless.

if the card is so desirable, people will buy it in any condition that they can get it in, then condition means absolutely nothing also.

in both of those scenarios things break down.

i think most would say that the price of the nicest card is really the single biggest determining factor in why they are purchasing the cards they purchase. i didn't set out to collect the monster in 8+ condition because i will never be able to afford it. i picked the nicest grade that i think i can reasonably afford. if i could buy a 10 in my price range i would buy it instantly. if i had to buy a 1 because its the only thing i could find, i would do that also.

i believe the people that collect beaters are right there with me or they would much rather spend some of that money on other things as condition is not a factor for them, so long as they have an example of the card that they want.

kevin

[drcy]

By price, I meant 'book price' relative to grade.

If the theoretical or actual book price for a Near Mint is $1000 and $100 for poor, a poor card may sell for $160 ( or quite a bit above book price) in actual auction. The presence of a low grade example of a popular card may get lots of bids from people who can't normally afford it.

I didn't imply that the poor grade card would for Near Mint price. That wouldn't happen.

Duly note that I collected modern cards back when when you referred to Beckett magazine as a price guide. Even if the the prices listed were retail and you'd never get or pay that, you still referenced it as a marker. So 'book price' is in my vocabulary. Back then a card may sell for "50% of Becket" or $70% of Beckett." Something selling for above Becket was an unusual situation, perhaps caused by the young prospect's star was rising as he hit more home runs.

I know some people here have objected when a seller lists Near Mint book price at the sale of a Vg example, but that was just standard procedure back then. The Near Mint book price was just a marker, the number listed in Beckett or SCD, and the buyer and seller did the calculations from that. The price was retail, plus a Vg card would normally be worth, say, 30% of Near Mint. Listing the Near Mint book price wasn't a form of deception, and wasn't implying that that was what the Vg card for sale was worth.

[drcy]

I put a big error in my example prices above. Pre reread before you says 'What?!?'

My personal rule is if I catch an error before anyone else points it out, it doesn't count as an error.

[Exhibitman]

Comparing hi grade to lo grade is apples and oranges. A low grade card is often a substitute good for a hi grade one that the collector cannot afford. I can't afford a PSA 7 T206 Cobb so my demand for it is nil. I can afford a 2 so my demand is high for that card. I know that many collectors are like me and that fuels a demand for low grade cards that prices the superstars at more than the percentage of book their grade "should" fetch.

[thehoodedcoder]

i think what i said still applies. the book is supposed to be a guide based on past sales and give you an idea of what something will cost. sometimes its wrong. for example, in t206 land prices are way off lots of times.

people may or may not use the book to get an idea of what they should be paying. eventually they realize that they will never own the card at book value. it just takes some time for that realization to set in.

i would say the book is a resisting factor. its a factor but ultimately people wake up and realize the book may be wrong. it either takes them more time to buy the card because of that, or they buy a more affordable card in lower condition.

kevin

[mrvster]

condition rarely, if ever, matters to me....I actually hope that some of my examples are "beat up" a little, it keeps others away...or keep prices a little lower....a lot of my scrap are beat up, due to what they were considered back in the day "garbage" lol....the irony....

but, I collect T206 freaks/scraps or rarities....so the examples are usually one of a kinds, or very few examples known to exist....so , supply vs. demand is more of the factor...



There was a brown old mill that Dan McKee had on ebay for the longest time, a few years ago, with a buy it now of 5 k I think....I was thinking about pulling the trigger for a year( it had pen writing all over the back), but the cash was hard to get up, but more of the factor, I couldn't get over all the pen writing on the back, I figured id find a better example....well, its been about 4 or 5 years now......I should've gotten it then......the only time I really let condition bother me...

a few weeks ago, I traded a few cards for a blank back T206 moose grimshaw with writing on the back.....this is the only moose grimshaw blank back known to existT206......you bet I DID NOT let the writing on the back become the deal breaker this time, and I'm ecstatic

[VoodooChild]

I actually just dealt with this exact question over the holiday. I'm pretty new to Pre-War and have never really been a set collector. However, I've decided to put together T206 and E121-80 sets. With the T206's, there's really no reason for me to buy altered or poor condition cards except for maybe the few "rare" ones. But with the E121's, there are alot of cards that just rarely become available. I have been in contact with a Board member and fellow E121 collector who told me about one of those pretty rare cards. He said that he has only seen this particular card available a couple of times over the past few years and recommended that I consider buying it. I checked it out and it was slabbed PSA Authentic with clipped corners and writing on the back. I struggled with the decision for a few days, but realized this might be my only chance to acquire it so I pulled the trigger. I came to realization that condition cannot matter for the rare cards if I want to complete the E121-80 set. I just have to purchase them when they become available and hope to maybe upgrade them if the opportunity arises. There was a Best Offer option so I put in an offer for slightly more than half of the asking price and the seller accepted. I am happy with my decision.