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Old 02-06-2016, 10:18 AM
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Default I Believe This Could Be A Complete Horizontal Layout For This T206 Sheet

I recently found this Gibson plate scratch that closes up a gap in the A-B sheet
which I think completes the horizontal layout for this sheet.
Attachment 220321 img352.jpg img353.jpg

Attachment 220322Sheet%20A-B - Copy.jpg

There were two different fronts used with this plate scratch sheet which has a Sweet Caporal Factory 649op and A SC 649 no print subject for each horizontal position so I think one sheet had all the 649's and other one
had the 649 no prints. There are 5 spots on the bottom row missing the second subject for that particular scratch, 3 649's and two 649 no prints.
Attachment 220340
img358 - Copy.jpg

There are two different plate scratch sheets with a left to right horizontal
scratch and they have two different distinct scratches. One is a heavier single
scratch and the other is thinner scratch that is double in some areas. (That's the scratch on this sheet.)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sheet A-B crop.jpg (84.8 KB, 2210 views)
File Type: jpg Sheet C-D.jpg (79.2 KB, 2215 views)

Last edited by Pat R; 05-18-2017 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:36 AM
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I think this sheet is complete horizontally at 17 subjects or this is the minimum
width of this sheet. There are no vertical scratches on this sheet to determine
the height but one of the sheets with a vertical scratch is at least 11 high and
another is 12 high. I'm thinking 12 might be the vertical number. The hoe NO.4 press bed is 26X34 which would fit this sheet.

While I think the plate scratch sheets might have been 12X17 with the same subject used vertically for the entire sheet. I don't think all the sheets were
this size and we know for sure that the vertical subjects were not the same on all the sheets by the two name and miscut examples that exist.

This is what I think one of the A-B sheets looked like. O'Leary and McIntyre
need to be substituted with 649 no print subjects but the second scratch for those positions haven't been confirmed yet and they should be 649 no prints
when they're found.
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File Type: jpg OquLearyper20_1_%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy%20_2_.jpg (81.2 KB, 2221 views)
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:42 AM
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Congrats Pat. Exciting result from a lot of work.
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:47 AM
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Pretty amazing Pat.. awesome effort sorting through these!
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:02 AM
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This is really great. You can see why they would be cut up even if they survived the printer's blade - all of the vertical repetition isn't as appealing as, say, a sheet with all different players on it, which would be far more displayable. Great job!
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:42 AM
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Default Awesome!

I know you've put a tremendous amount of time and effort into this. Flat out awesome!
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Old 02-07-2016, 03:08 PM
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Default Pat R

I commend you on a lot of good work here.

However, as you know that I cannot accept your "17-subject" wide sheet arrangement. Basically for the following two reasons......

1st....the factor "17" does not map into any of the various T206 series (or sub-sets) numerical structure. As I have presented on
this forum many times, 12 is the common denominator throughout the T206 structure. For example: 12 subjects in the 150-only
group....144 subjects in the 150/350 series....48 subjects in the Southern League group....the Elite 12....the Exclusive 12....etc.

2nd....research has shown that American Lithographic printed these cards with a 19-inch wide track printing press.

Your speculation of a 17 cards wide sheet would require a 26-inch wide press.


Incidently, shown here are the Mullin cards in my sets. I don't see this PIEDMONT 150 Mullin (with scratch) in your diagram (Post #2).
The point that I'm making here is that trying to formulate an arrangement of a hypothetical T206 sheet based on printng scratches
can be quite arbitrary.







Hey guys, here is an example of my concept of a T206 sheet based on the Exclusive 12 subjects in the 460-only series......

..v............................19-inch x 24-inch sheet (standard size)............................v




TED Z
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Old 02-07-2016, 03:49 PM
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The Mullin has a scratch from upper left to lower right. That's part of a different group from the ones Pat has put together so far. That other one I think also has a vertical scratch or two.

While the Scientific American article showed Hoe #5 presses at ALC when they electrified, there's no evidence I've seen indicating any particular press used for any particular job. That includes the existing progressive proof books for cigar box labels.
Like any large shop ALC most likely had a variety of presses that would be used depending on how many of something were to be printed.

The scratches can show certain things, but not others. They can show that two cards were likely side by side on the sheet. That there's two cards showing the same scratch limits that to a possibility of 2, but at the same time, if one shows the scratch and another shows the same scratch they can be positively ruled out as being from the same sheet. Combined with a front mark like the one Pat showed recently they can show cards as being from the same sheet. It's hardly arbitrary.

There are a few things that need more research.
ALC was close to Hoe in a business sense, Hoe made a lot of different sorts of presses around 1910. Including both the flatbed presses like the #5, rotary presses that used plates rather than stones, web fed presses that printed not sheets but rolls of paper or cardstock, and multi color presses. There is some evidence that some but probably not all T206s were printed on a two color press.

There's a lot of evidence that most of the series were printed at least three times, and that subjects were reworked between printings as well as between series. 150's were done at least three times, and were altered before the 350 series, which was printed at least twice with a reworking in between for many subjects.

And among all that is the possibility (Almost certainty) that there were multiple sheet layouts for each series AND each back. That's especially true for the 150's where there's a handful of outliers that don't match up with a simple layout of single sheets. (Crawford wasn't in the Sovereign set but was in all the others. I can't imagine he was printed but pulled)

The scratches - at least one of them was deep enough to carry over into P350. Whether it was deep enough to survive resurfacing or the 150 stone with the scratch was altered to produce a 350 stone without having all new transfers laid down is a puzzle for the future.

At least one P150 back shows a doubling, either a poorly erased earlier layout or a redone misplaced transfer (Criger - Any others?)

So the simple solution of a sheet always being the same size really doesn't work.

Steve B
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:23 PM
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Default Twelve Subjects Per Sheet

Ted,

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not saying all of the sheets were
this size but several of the plate scratch sheets are larger than 12 subjects
wide, this I'm sure of and I think the plate scratch evidence is solid proof of
that.

As Steve said the Mullin is a right to left plate scratch and was on a different
sheet. The sheet In this thread consists of subjects with left to right plate scratches.
At last count there were over 250 different plate scratches and 5 or 6
different plate scratch sheets. (I'm on the fence if one of the sheets is actually
two separate sheets).

Here's the sheet with Mullin on it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sheet%20E - Copy - Copy.jpg (78.6 KB, 1097 views)
File Type: jpg Sheet%20E.jpg (80.8 KB, 1095 views)
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Old 02-08-2016, 10:45 PM
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Those match up nicely, job well done, Pat. It's always fun to learn of the processes behind the making of the cards.

And thanks for sharing all of the info guys...and for the good card discussion.
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