extra red ink card

[thehoodedcoder]

so this is a new one to me. i just won this auction and i am wondering who else has a similiar card to this one with a red hat.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Jim-Del...-/261194067107


also wondering if you have any other "extra red ink cards" or any "extra ink cards"

kevin

[Craig M]

Kevin,

Be careful! Especially when spending that kind of money.

I saw that card when it was first listed; if you would have blown that card up on your computer screen, it appears that somebody took a red type felt tip pen and messed with it because there is still white on the cap that was missed, along with the name area enlarged also showed possible messing with.

I am not saying the seller did this but you must be careful of "tweeners" on eBay. It's best to ask seller for a scan.

Craig

[nameless]

I also looked at this. Looks like marker. HA is also rubbed or scratched off.

[Jaybird]

Agreed. This card is colored in with a pen of some sort.

[t206hound]

Agreed. This card has been recolored.

[Cardboard Junkie]

It shouldn't be hard to stop the deal. Just send him a link to this thread. Also, don't feel bad. It was a deceiving listing. Not as described. I'm sure we have all been prey to this kind of stuff. dave.

[thehoodedcoder]

i figured the same thing but didn't want to conclusively draw that conclusion yet.

its only a hundred bucks. i will deal with it when i get it and put it under the loupe.

kevin

[wolterse]

Hey guys, this is my card that sold last night. I picked it up a few weeks ago from a friend that received it as part of a massive consignment of t206s that were 'sealed' for 20+ years. I had a hobby friend with me as we went through the cards and found this one. Like many of you, I thought it was a felt tip pen that marked up the hat. Then I noticed that the same red ink is on the uniform and there is event blue ink on the uniform as well. The uniform marks don't look anything like felt tip pen. We came to the conclusion as a group that it was in fact a print error. That said, we didn't take it under magnification but I understand the ebay buyer will. If upon closer examination, it's identified as not a print error then I will 100% refund.

[iwantitiwinit]

Sounds fair to me.

[thehoodedcoder]

hi,

i am the buyer. its cool man. i believe you. i appreciate your honesty on it and i don't think you meant any harm by listing it as such if you honestly believe it is an print defect.

if it is a print defect i certianly want it. if its not then i don't. you can ship it to me and i will make my own decision...and hopefully its not cause it would be the perfect addition to my 'missing red ink' collection

kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

hi,

ok. so i just got the card. i will have to be honest here. i can't tell. its either a really good fake, i don't have enough experience in this or it is in fact the real deal.


as much as my mind tells me, that its probabaly not, my eyes are telling me that its the real deal.

there is ink spatter in the most minute places, above the eyebrows and in the shading that are not visible to the naked eye. it has all of the right textures.

im going to try and take a picture of this through the loupe, with my iphone later. i believe that it will work.

kevin

[Cardboard Junkie]

Interesting Kevin....Can't wait to see a detailed scan under the loupe. Do you have a black light? How does it look under that? Dave. ps maybe Ted Z will chime in.

[thehoodedcoder]

I don't have a blacklight unfortunately.

I must say I am honestly stumped. I have included a set of scans on my site. One is from my scannner. And i highlighted the interesting parts that i notice red ink on, that you really can't see with the naked eye....particularly the grass in the background.

the loupe pictures were much harder to take because of steadying the hand and the area i can realistically take a photo of
in focus.

while the hat looks colored in and fake when you look at it, the more up close you look the better it gets, its tough to tell in the middle of the hat because there are scratches on the surface of the card and they add to the shadow/textures in that area.

there are places where there is blue ink and red ink on the uniform that look really consistent with a shading pattern and the hat where the jig jags are have a very very fine spatter pattern that is consistent with how the ink would have been laid down.

Delehanty Red Hat

kevin

[Craig M]

C'mon Kevin, are you funnin me?

The card is real but it has been messed with. Firstly, why would you start a new thread talking about this when you had another going about it? Secondly, are you trying to justify that this card is the real deal? It's the real deal BUT that cap is as phony as a three dollar bill so you can stop there.

A red fine tip pen was used to make the lines on his jersey. For the 100 bucks that you spent you could of had a few Delahanty's that were not messed with. Pulled a couple of Delahanty cards out of my low grade raw collection to compare.

God Bless you for trying though.

Craig

[thehoodedcoder]

you mean like this psa 6 i already own?

where are you seeing a seperate thread about it? your one page two...

kevin

[Craig M]

My bad....somebody was discussing this card during the eBay auction on another site but did not save it.

Do you agree the card is real?

...and has been messed with?

or tell us what you are thinking?

Your graded Delhanty and my left Delahanty have the redness in the face but yet there is no red on the uniform.

BTW, I like your other missining red ink and name errors on your site. Those are sweet!

Craig

[thehoodedcoder]

the card is definitely real.

im not convinced yet that it has been messed with in its entirity.

there are places where the red ink you are seeing appears to be under the blue ink on the uniform but its hard to tell.... as well as appearing to be the same the other colors on the hand.

the red hat makes it tough to swallow. i don't claim to be an expert and am in fact not but i have looked a cards under a loupe before.

what about the blue ink on the uniform? do you think that is real? why would someone ad blue in to the card in a fashion that it is applied. you would have to get in there with a microscope to do it. the blue ink is clearly a shading/embelishment color on the uniform.

im not on here trying to convince you that its real. that is not the point. i came on to get open minded opinions.

side note the name is not messed with. it is curled up on the edge so you can't see the letters. to your point about the face, no. they don't have red ink. they have flesh color on the face. the face on the red hat card is definitely red ink. same thing with the hand and all of the other places i pointed out.

kevin

[EvilKing00]

just a guess here, but a $5.00 black light may solve this, i would think.

[Jaybird]

The pen strokes in the hat are a dead giveaway. No other solid colors in a T206 have strokes like that. I have a feeling most people are staying away from this thread because it is a fairly obvious manipulation.

[thehoodedcoder]

i think what you see as pen strokes are actually scratch marks or like tiny slits on the physical surface of the card.

the hat color is actaully pretty consistent in color and the color is a perfect match to the ear color.

not sure where to pick up a small black light yet at but i definitely will be adding that to my collection of tools. gotta do some looking.

kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

the other thing you can not see at all is that the ultra far right side of the hat actually has some red dots on the edge also. i have been looking at it under a loupe now for an hour and i just saw this. this would not have been done with a stroking motion. they are ultra small. needle point small.

if someone used a felt tip pen...especially a fine felt tip pen, i would expect them to be hitting a lot of places they already colored in and there would be drastic color changes with even more evidence of stroke. due to the fact that they need to make a lot more strokes. i would also expect the color of the red to be a lot darker than it is.

going to try to hit home depot after dinner out.

later,
kevin

[steve B]

This one's a puzzle. The hat looks wrong, even with scratches. The dark patch looks like it might be damage that got fixed at one time. And the top of the cap is raised a bit from what a normal one would look like.

But the other areas are interesting.
Mine has the same red on the hand, and a quick check of Ebay shows that some others have it too.
The card is in general overinked a bit on all the colors. The black of the eye farthest right shows solidly black, while mine has a defenite dot pattern and structure.
Mine also has the red on the face and ear. I think on most cards it's buried under the black while on this one it's printed a bit high and so it shows. The overinking really makes it stand out.
The red lines on the uniform do appear to be under the blue and black. I really wasn't expecting to see that. It's possible that if the marker was watercolor the ink wouldn't have stuck to the oil based ink.
The blue is overinked, some show that blue others don't. Mine has traces of it in a couple areas, none in others.

There's also one I saw scans of that has some light red in the same general areas of the uniform. It's part of someone's buy it now museum, so it may be there a while.

Better scans would really help, anything 600 or better, I prefer 800. At that level you can almost see the layers of ink as layers.

Steve B

[thehoodedcoder]

hi,

can you link to the buy it now museum please.

what do you mean "raised a bit".?

i have looked up close between the piedmont 150 i have and this card which is sc 350 and i might be wrong about this but it almost looks like they are slightly different in design. i will have to check this better agin when i get home.

side note: if it was felt tip, i would expect it to bleed on the edges, in addtion to my above comments. i don't see any bleeding.

the other thing is, if it was water color. wouldn't you expect it to stain? there is a certian degree of correctability with water colors but there is always a stain that some sort of discoloration that is left behind if water color hits the paper and then is corrected. it is also a little dark for water color, althought i am not an expert on water color colors. i think they are more pastelly right?

kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

I have decided I am keeping the card.

Kevin

[Cardboard Junkie]

Aloha Kevin....What is your ultimate conclusion? Did you "black light" it. The results of UV light exam should answer the question "original" or "color added". Dave.

[Theo_450]

I know something about printing and printers because of my line of work. It seems the area between where the hat goes from red to white is at a strange angle to the X, Y matrix that printers operate on (even if the paper was not loaded entirley squarely). Shifts on mass (registration problems) are easily noticable. In my humble opinion, this looks like some sort of pen marking.

That being said, I have not held the card, and examined it to any where near the degree the buyer has, so my opinion is just my opinion.

I would also like to say that I am pleased that you decided to keep the card, because that means YOU LIKE IT! And that is what really counts!

[thehoodedcoder]

Wasnt able to get a black light to my liking yet.

I'm looking for a small flashlight style and I can't find one.

I was able to find an ultra violet one.... A green light, white light, and red light one all in one at home depot. I put it under that for the time being. Nothing drastic stood out.

Kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Theo_450

I know something about printing and printers because of my line of work. It seems the area between where the hat goes from red to white is at a strange angle to the X, Y matrix that printers operate on (even if the paper was not loaded entirley squarely). Shifts on mass (registration problems) are easily noticable. In my humble opinion, this looks like some sort of pen marking.

That being said, I have not held the card, and examined it to any where near the degree the buyer has, so my opinion is just my opinion.

I would also like to say that I am pleased that you decided to keep the card, because that means YOU LIKE IT! And that is what really counts!

Im having a hard time visualizing what you mean. I also done have the cad with me. I'm on my iPhone following the girlfriend around Costco.

Kevin

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

Wasnt able to get a black light to my liking yet.

I'm looking for a small flashlight style and I can't find one.

I was able to find an ultra violet one.... A green light, white light, and red light one all in one at home depot. I put it under that for the time being. Nothing drastic stood out.

Kevin

check ebay there are thousands of them

[thehoodedcoder]

true.

i just wanted to pick one up. like i said, my time is limited during the week. i made a shot at home depot last week and that is all i found. i like to buy stuff in person if im not 100 percent sure what i am buying

i just ordered this one off ebay. sounds like it will do the trick:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400466159713...84.m1497.l2649

kevin

[Theo_450]

You can just but a blacklight bulb for a regular lamp. Check WalMart!

[Theo_450]

This is the area that I am talking about. The lines run east north east to west south west. The rest of the image has the tell talke dots of a 50 DPI printer.

[thehoodedcoder]

ok. that is what i was saying before in a previous post. those dark sections that look like lines in your highlighted areas are partially/due to physical scratches/slits on the surface of the card.

addition/edit: what is your opinion about the ink on the uniform?

i was hoping the guy which said he saw a similiar card would link me to where that image is.


kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Theo_450

You can just but a blacklight bulb for a regular lamp. Check WalMart!

i want something portable so i can take it shows with me. i have no use for a blacklight lightbulb. college has been over with for a long time now. LOL.

kevin

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

Wasnt able to get a black light to my liking yet.

I'm looking for a small flashlight style and I can't find one.

I was able to find an ultra violet one.... A green light, white light, and red light one all in one at home depot. I put it under that for the time being. Nothing drastic stood out.

Kevin

Kevin, this is a no-brainer. Either provide a hi-res scan and we can tell you whether or not the red is production, or mail me the card and I'll tell you. I can accomplish this in the amount of time that it takes my eyes to focus through a loupe (plus 1 second). Not bragging - almost anyone I know who collects T206's could do the same.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Kevin, this is a no-brainer. Either provide a hi-res scan and we can tell you whether or not the red is production, or mail me the card and I'll tell you. I can accomplish this in the amount of time that it takes my eyes to focus through a loupe (plus 1 second). Not bragging - almost anyone I know who collects T206's could do the same.

im sorry that this discussion is not coming to a close fast enough for you. lol.

i didn't even reopen the thread to discussion really. i simply said...im keeping it, to provide resolution to the seller, then responded to someones inquiry.

i am doing the best with what i have. i have my best scans up, with the scanner i have. im not going out to buy a new scanner to scan this card. its just not happening. i don't have a need for one and almost don't even want the one i have, since i never use the useless printer attached to it.

i have a loupe. i have looked it. i have taken a picture of it through the loupe and uploaded it to my site. it shows almost everything you can see through the loupe.

kevin

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

im sorry that this discussion is not coming to a close fast enough for you. lol.

i didn't even reopen the thread to discussion really. i simply said...im keeping it, to provide resolution to the seller, then responded to someones inquiry.

i am doing the best with what i have. i have my best scans up, with the scanner i have. im not going out to buy a new scanner to scan this card. its just not happening. i don't have a need for one and almost don't even want the one i have, since i never use the useless printer attached to it.

i have a loupe. i have looked it. i have taken a picture of it through the loupe and uploaded it to my site. it shows almost everything you can see through the loupe.

kevin

You mis-read my intent. I re-read the thread and it appeared that you were looking for an answer for your question, and that it was taking a long time for you go get it; thus, you might be a bit frustrated.

So I provided a solution. Sounds like that is not the solution that you are looking for

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You mis-read my intent. I re-read the thread and it appeared that you were looking for an answer for your question, and that it was taking a long time for you go get it; thus, you might be a bit frustrated.

So I provided a solution. Sounds like that is not the solution that you are looking for

i am far from frustrated. i actually started this thread asking if anyone has seen any other cards similiar to it, not questioning the card itself if you recall correctly.

so this is a new one to me. i just won this auction and i am wondering who else has a similiar card to this one with a red hat. also wondering if you have any other "extra red ink cards" or any "extra ink cards"

i will handle it and continue to examine it when i have time outside of everything else i have to do...like i have been doing.

[Craig M]

Hi Kevin,

You were 100% correct when you began this thread with your title that read: extra red ink card.

This card can now take a long needed rest tucked away in your collection for many years.

Regards,

Craig

[thehoodedcoder]

i have yet to sell or trade a single card, over the course of my entire collecting time.

i have no intention to sell anything inside of the next 50 years, including this card.

cheers,
kevin

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

i have a loupe. i have looked it. i have taken a picture of it through the loupe and uploaded it to my site. it shows almost everything you can see through the loupe.

kevin

In that case, you already know the answer to your question : "yes, we've all seen examples of cards like this."

[Theo_450]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

ok. that is what i was saying before in a previous post. those dark sections that look like lines in your highlighted areas are partially/due to physical scratches/slits on the surface of the card.

addition/edit: what is your opinion about the ink on the uniform?

i was hoping the guy which said he saw a similiar card would link me to where that image is.


kevin

The ink on the uniform looks like pen work also. The ink on the face and hand do not look like pen work. I think, that a pen (felt tip or otherwise) could drag moisture across the surface and leave "scratches". Please understand that I am totally not trying to hassle you or doubt you. Just giving my humble opinion. As I already said, you like the card, and that is what counts!

As for the black lightbulb, college is in the distant past for me also, but I have found other uses for the blacklight bulb. Mood lighting never looses its appeal. It makes my wife look really tan!

[Theo_450]

Here is a pretty good link: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=variation

I think it shows how missed or extra color passes, or bad registration effect how a card looks.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Theo_450

The ink on the uniform looks like pen work also. The ink on the face and hand do not look like pen work. I think, that a pen (felt tip or otherwise) could drag moisture across the surface and leave "scratches". Please understand that I am totally not trying to hassle you or doubt you. Just giving my humble opinion. As I already said, you like the card, and that is what counts!

As for the black lightbulb, college is in the distant past for me also, but I have found other uses for the blacklight bulb. Mood lighting never looses its appeal. It makes my wife look really tan!

LOL. Mood lighting huh. Funny. LOL.

I get it, your not offending me. I will digest everything you are giving me.

The red ink on the uniform is under the blue ink on the uniform. No?

kevin

[Theo_450]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

LOL. Mood lighting huh. Funny. LOL.

I get it, your not offending me. I will digest everything you are giving me.

The red ink on the uniform is under the blue ink on the uniform. No?

kevin

Hard to say, but what I do notice is that all the other colors appear as dots, like one would expect. The red on the uniform appears to be lines (not made up of dots).

[steve B]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

hi,

can you link to the buy it now museum please.

what do you mean "raised a bit".?

i have looked up close between the piedmont 150 i have and this card which is sc 350 and i might be wrong about this but it almost looks like they are slightly different in design. i will have to check this better agin when i get home.

side note: if it was felt tip, i would expect it to bleed on the edges, in addtion to my above comments. i don't see any bleeding.

the other thing is, if it was water color. wouldn't you expect it to stain? there is a certian degree of correctability with water colors but there is always a stain that some sort of discoloration that is left behind if water color hits the paper and then is corrected. it is also a little dark for water color, althought i am not an expert on water color colors. i think they are more pastelly right?

kevin

Sorry, the "buy it now museum" is how someone else refered to the assortment of very overpriced cards that are avalable with buy it now - And have been for a couple years. I liked that name and decided to use it.

The one I was looking at was this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190818811835...ht_2082wt_1161

It's got some red in areas that yours does, and where most others don't. The cuff of the sleeve, the area that looks like a line between two sleeves around the elbow, and the folds of the uniform under the arm.

The 150 and 350 may have slight differences. There are a couple where it's obvious like Conroy.
Craigs pair of beaters show some differences between them. It's hard to tell if they're different, or if a bit of it is from the scanner/camera (I'm guessing camera, but that's a great pic for a camera, or a not so good scan)

The sort of ink matters, nearly all inks are either a dye or colorant in a carrier, or a straight dye. Inks used in lithography are all oil based. Markers are an odd collection of types. Some like sharpies are probably oil based, while many of the cheaper markers are water based. (Or less commonly alcohol)

The process of lithography uses a plate that will retain water with sections that are sealed so they will accept the oil based ink which won't stick to the wet plate.
So, the reverse also works. If you have an oil based ink on paper and write over it with a marker that has non-oil based ink the marker ink will write on the paper and not where the ink is.
The inks can be nearly any thickness. Since with a marker you want a nice clean line the ink dries fairly quickly and should be a bit thick. (Not like watercolor paints which are usually mixed to be very wet.)

The top of the hat is hard to explain. On most Delehantys, there's line that makes the curve of the hat. The button on top is shown by an angled line that's connected to the curve on the right hand side. On yours, that angled section is angled up more, and the bit of curve to the left of it is well above the arc of the hat while the rest of the line from the left almost to the middle is right where it's supposed to be.

I may have to do some photoshop or sketch it for it to make sense.

Steve B

[thehoodedcoder]

well i just bought that card....so its not in the museum any longer. lol.

you know a lot about printing....my dad used to run a press but he has long since retired and is exhibiting signs of CRS. LOL.

when examining the red hat card and my psa 6 piedmont card i noticed slight differences as well. it made me start to wonder if it is a slightly different design/redraw of the same card. i didn't study it hard enough yet from that aspect...but i read a post some where that was talking about the lundgren KC card and the other lundgren card were actually different redraw and figured maybe its a possiblity.

yea. i am totally lost on your explanation without a picture.
the other image you showed with a circle is probably less effective than an arrow terminating at the exact thing you are talking about. can you literally point to exactly what you mean?

kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Theo_450

Hard to say, but what I do notice is that all the other colors appear as dots, like one would expect. The red on the uniform appears to be lines (not made up of dots).

I agree with you. In the event of a red background though...they look solid and blend together into a single solid background right?

When i chose something to compare it to, i picked a red background portriat card. i guess i have to bring the horde home and start looking at more of my cards where red is not the background and see what is up.

kevin

[Theo_450]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

I agree with you. In the event of a red background though...they look solid and blend together into a single solid background right?

When i chose something to compare it to, i picked a red background portriat card. i guess i have to bring the horde home and start looking at more of my cards where red is not the background and see what is up.

kevin

Or buy a blacklight bulb!

[Runscott]

Steve B -

not to hijack the thread, but I have another 'extra red ink' question and I think you missed the thread - please take a look at my thread on a 'maroon back' OBAK. Scott and John think it's extra red ink and I would like your opinion. Having the card in front of me, compared to backs of the others, it looks like a completely different color, but if it's possible that extra bright red could create maroon, I'm sure you would be the man with the answer.