50-60 T-206 Wagners Exist? Really !!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: TONY

Take about misinformation
I went to my 1st hobby show back in 1972 & recall several hobby veterans discussing that only 50-60 T-206 honus wagner cards were known to the hobby.....

Yet 34 yrs later I hear 50-60 wagners exist......

You mean to tell me not ONE new Wagner has been discovered since then?

Why can't our hobby keep track of such things in a better fashion......

Yes pop reports help, but obviously not all key cards have been graded or ever will be graded

Anyone have a idea of how many Wagners do exist today?

Just curious....

Tony Galovich

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

back when I was more active in the 80s, I knew a person that said he could confirm the existance of 47 Wagners and that there were most likely more out there that he didn't know about. I think the Piedmont Wagner is a recent addition (after 1972). Even if 5 new Wagners were found in that time, it wouldn't seriously change the estimate of 50-60.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

[Archive]

Posted By: DJ

The Wagner wouldn't be the Wagner if three-four "new" examples showed up in the hobby every single year. If new cards were discovered this frequently, the Wagner would most certainly lose it's magic and it's value wouldn't increase as it has over the years.

I think it will be very difficult to get some collectors to admit they have one in order to run some kind of census. A lot of collectors are very private about what they own and therefore what we have is simply an estimate at around sixty, or a tad over.

DJ

[Archive]

Posted By: Martin Neal

I remember a few years ago, the state of West Virginia sold off the contents of some unclaimed safety deposit boxes. One of them had a pretty rough T206 Wagner. I can't swear to any thing much less this story. This could be just a rumor.

[Archive]

Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Part of the mystique of the card to me is how few are in such condition that the only serious defect is corner rounding. I am aware of perhaps ten in such condition.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason Duncan

I would assume there are alot more than 50. I know if I had one I would keep it under wraps until I was ready to sell. There more that surface, then the better chance the value could possibly drop. I am sure there are alot more than we know about.


Jason

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

The Piedmont one that Mastro sold a few years ago was from the Charles Bray collection. Since he was a very prominent collector, I don't think that would qualify as a new find among Wagners. The fact that it had a Piedmont back may have been a new revelation however.

I think it is virtually impossible to count these for obvious reasons. I have only heard of one or two legitimate new discoveries to the hobby in the past 10-15 years. They just don't come up that often. So if there have been five or six new discoveries in the past 30 years, that would up the estimate to 55-65 roughly (assuming the earlier estimate was accurate). No offense intended, but somebody telling a teenager (at the time) that they know where 47 of them are should be taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't consider it a fact. I doubt anybody could accurately account for that many of them today.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

and how many Orange Border Matty's are there?

more scarce than honus --- sorry for taking this in a different topic direction, I don't mean to change the subject. Its just whenever I read about a "scarce" card, my thoughts always go to this one (maybe I should call HBO)...

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Jim, I was not a teenager at the time and the person that told this is one of the few people in this hobby whose reputation is pretty much beyond reproach. I have no doubt that at the time, he knew exactly where 47 different Wagners were.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

The Orange Border Matty is just one of thousands of cards that are Rarer than the T206 Wagner. It doesnt mean is has anywhere near the value. The T206 Wagner is the most sought after card from the most sought after set. And if you want the set you need a Wagner.

For example, among others, Every single card from these sets is rarer than the T206 Wagner, (short list off top of my head) N167, N175, N321, N333, N338, N370, N690, T4, T208, T209-1, T209-2, T211, T212-1, T213-3, T214, T215-1, T215-2, T215 Pirate, T216-1, T216-2, T216-3, T217, Derby E90-3, E92-3, E92-4, E97 B&W, E99, E104, E105, E107, E222, E223, E225, Orange Border, Base-Ball Bats, J=K, Darby, All Star Baseball, W511, W519-1-2, W517-2, W553, D303-2, D310, D380, D380-1, Cresent, Holland, Honey Boy, Hughes, PCL Exhibits, 1949 PCL Bowman, Gilmartin, Western Playground, Big Eater, Worch, Pebble Beach, H801-7, and a few dozen more....

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The funny thing is, the T206 Wagner may be right at the top among the most plentiful of all vintage Wagner cards. Considering about 75 are known, how many other sets have that many survivors? Maybe E95, perhaps a couple of other E issues, but the majority of sets likely have even less available. How many Wagners have survived in E107, E103, E94, E90-2, etc.? It's the classic example of a reasonable supply but an insatiable demand.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

A true credit to the hobby! Very cool to see a listing of cards scarcer than wagner.

I didn't mean to imply the orange matty should ever, would ever, or could ever approach the value of a wagner (or anywhere close to it).

For ego alone (at least for me)... I would be very proud/excited to have the Wagner. It is 'the' symbol of the hobby... so it would be cool to actually have one and be able to brag about it.

Truth be told though...
If it wasn't told to me that the Wagner was scarce, and I didn't know it was so revered by others.... I wouldn't be that interested in it myself. And, as a matty collector... I get more personal enjoyment out of the Orange Matty card.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

....are out there....and does anyone really care ? Chicago Transit Authority
circa late '60's......Oops, they were talking about "Time".

But, we are talking about T206 Wagners.

Jim B......as much as I have to "grit my teeth".....I have to come to JayB's
defense.

Back in the late '70s at the Willow Grove Show veteran Philadelphia collector Irv
Lerner and I think it was Bill Heitman were at Lerner's table comparing notes and
they had a pretty accurate handle of all the known Wagner's in the hobby then
and who had them.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: RayB

Anybody have the Pop Reports from the 3 major grading houses on the Wagners? It would be interesting to note exactly how many of these are out there already graded.
RayB

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

also remember in the late 70's a wagner was "only" worth maybe $1000-$5000 and how many people were into paying that much for a baseball card?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

With all due respect even back in the 70's if there were 47 known I would venture to guess there were (and still are) several unknown..If by todays exact account there are 60 known then I don't think 15 more would be stretching it ?? The more I am in the hobby the more I see stuff I never thought I would see......best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: sagard

It appears that PSA has graded 25 Wagners and has holdered a couple as "authentic", but those don't show up in the pop reports.

SGC has graded three. GAI may have a couple as well.

[Archive]

Posted By: ScottIngold

In the early 80's.. Like 82 through 85. My father and i used to go to a shop in Nyack N.Y. This was a small store above an antique store run by a gent who had to be in his 60's at the time. Since we were regulars and developed a relationship with him ( through my dad spending $ of course ). One day he brings out a Wagner and Cobb with Cobb back. Now that i think of it. Was the Cobb even considered a rarity than ?........ Ted ????



My point being he had some of the Wagner reprints on display in the store, so i do believe his was real. But if he had one. How many more could be out there in collections like his?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

LEON

Please don't mis-understand my comments on prior post here. I was just trying to
confirm what JayB had said in an earlier post on this Thread.

I wasn't stating, factually, that only 47 Wagner cards were the exact count back
then.....I firmly believe in the "1/3 factor" in all aspects everyday life.

If Irv Lerner (who has continuously been in the hobby since the 1940's) says he
can account for 47 Wagner's back in the late '70s (or early '80s), then I take
half that number (23) and add it to 47 and arrive at approx. "70 cards".

That would be my educated guess as of then. And, this figure is pretty consistent
with most estimates.

Additionally, we know of at least two more Wagner's (the Gretzy-Gidwitz-etc. card),
and the one Barry Sloate acquired, both surfacing in the mid-80's. And, I'm sure some
others will chime in with a few more.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Sounds like a good rule of thumb. I think our guesstimates are pretty close...but I only have about 10 yrs of an addiction to base my thinking on...Some of you guys have more experience than I am old (and I ain't young).....

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Barry's last post raises a point I've always wondered about -- exactly how many Wagner's are there that AREN'T rarer than the T206? I'd assume that the Cracker Jack and M116 are more common than the T206. And the E95 and Colgans Chips as well. But the guy just doesn't have many cards, and most of them are rare. I have his M110 Sporting Life Cabinet, an E125 American Caramel, and a D381 Fleischman's. I assume all of these are rarer than the T206, though I have no illusions about their value. Others that have to be more rare than the T206 are the T5 Pinkerton, the T216s, E103, E107, W600, JuJu Drum, and Jones, Keyser cabinet.

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach Rice

Here are a few more than are more to add to Paul's list:
E224 type one and two
Voskamp's Coffee
Orange Borders
Allegheny
E125
E271
M131
E300

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

I'd love to see who has the lastest type collection of Wagner cards. I'd be surprised if someone has more than half the available cards.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

How would the group rate the E90-2 Wagner in scarcity compared to the T206?

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

I do not believe the e90-2 wagner to be as few in # as the t206. but since I have one I wish it were! just my humble opinion.

pete in mn

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

I was trying to have pictures saved on the computer of every t206 wagner that is known. So far i have 17 or 18.

post pics of those wagners !

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

I have not been collecting as long as some on this board, but there seem to be a lot of e90-2 wagners around. They seem to come in batches. There has been one in every other auction in the past year and I must have seen 4-5 of them at the national alone. I don't know if there are more than 60-70, but there seem to be more of the e90-2 than other caramels such as crofts, e94, e98, e101, e102, e103, e104, e105, e106. I have seen more e90-2s than e90-1s.

I am sure that the recent prices of the e90-2s have brought them to the surface, but there have been a lot lately.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

another angle on the guesstimate is how many board members have e90-2 wagners? I'd guess 5-10...maybe more? How many board members have t206 wagners? I know Hal has one...anyone else?

pete ullman

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I've got E90-2. No T-206, though.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

nice bruce...mine makes 2...I know leon has one...his trucker wagner!

pete ullman

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

very nice wagner.

nicer than the t206

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I know of at least 3 fairly private board members, besides Hal, that have very nice T206 Wagners. I am sure there are several more. Most of these collectors won't come on the board and say what they have though.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

understandable Leon...I can certainly respect one's privacy. So maybe I was wrong...there are only 3 e90-2 wagners currently accounted for so far!

pete ullman

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

PSA graded: 23
SGC graded: 18
GAI graded: ?
ungraded: ?

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

thanks richard.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Dawson

I have a GAI 2.5 E90-2 Wagner.


Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK, you "Grading Guru's" what does your "pop" reports tell us about
the E90-1 Wagner's ?
And, is the Throwing pose tougher than the Batting one ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

I don't see how people can really go by population reports. Isn't there alot of people who get them graded, crack them out and re grade them again ? i guess that would mess it up a bit ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brett

I agree with you 100% regarding "pop" reports. I have made this same argument,
and more, in previous posts on this Forum. I'm not a fan of Graded cards. In fact
my entire collection is ungraded. But, its foolish to go against the trend, cards of
which I intend to sell or trade, I will get graded.

Regarding my two E90-1 Wagner cards that I displayed and asked for their "pop-
report" numbers, it's just a matter of curiosity.

T-Rex Ted

[Archive]

Posted By: James Gallo

Well the Batting pose is A LOT more common then the throwing.
I have seen a good number of the batting pose on ebay over the last few months, about 4-7 I would say.


PSA
Batting 17
Throwing 5

None graded over a 6.

SGC totals are 19, but I can't seem to break it down to pose.

REgardless it's a pretty rare card.

James Gallo


Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I read a blurb in a card mag stating that "collectors love the fact that Howie Kendrick only had 47 cards issued during his rookie season (2004)." One of each of these cards would cost you $923.

47 rookie cards for one player, and 47 is judged to be a low number, relatively speaking! At least the big card producers aren't over saturating the market . . .

This made me wonder, how many card issues did Wagner appear on during his playing days?

T206, E90-2, D304, E92, E90-1, T200, M110, W600, M101-2, Colgan's, PC796, E103, Tip-Top Pirates, M116, E300, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more. Any Wagner collectors out there? Is the total more or less than 47?

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Wagner issues from Brett's website with a little editing:

1899 Henry Reccius Cigars
1899 National Copper Plate
1899-1900 Sporting News Suppliments M101-1 8/19/1899
1902 Sporting Life Cabinets W600 Street
1902 Sporting Life Cabinets W600 Uniform
1903 Breisch Williams Type I E107
1904 Allegheny Card Co.
1906 Fan Craze National League WG3
1907-09 Novelty Cutlery Postcards with Cobb
1907-09 Novelty Cutlery Postcards
1908 American League Pub. Co. Postcards PC770
1908 LB Coyle Pirates Postcards
1908-09 Greenfield's Chocolates Postcards (Rose Co.)
1908-09 Rose Company Postcards
1909 Anonymous Set of 50 E101 Batting
1909 Anonymous Set of 50 E101 Throwing
1909 Croft's Candy E92 Batting, Black Back
1909 Croft's Candy E92 Batting, Blue Back
1909 Croft's Candy E92 Throwing, Black Back
1909 Croft's Candy E92 Throwing, Blue Back
1909 Croft's Cocoa E92 Batting
1909 Croft's Cocoa E92 Throwing
1909 Dockman & Sons Gum E92 Batting
1909 Dockman & Sons Gum E92 Throwing
1909 Nadja Caramels E92 Batting
1909 Nadja Caramels E92 Throwing
1909 Niagara Baking (E101) D355 Batting
1909 Niagara Baking (E101) D355 Throwing
1909 Philadelphia Caramel E95
1909 W. W. Smith Postcards with Cobb
1909 W. W. Smith Postcards
1909-10 W555 W555
1909-11 American Caramel Co. E90-1 Batting
1909-11 American Caramel Co. E90-1 Throwing
1909-11 Colgan's Chips E254 Pittsburg, Curved Letters
1909-11 Colgan's Chips E254 Pittsburg, Horizontal Letters
1909-11 Colgan's Chips E254 Pittsburgh, Curved Letters (Size variations)
1909-11 White Borders T206
1909-13 Sporting News Suppliments M101-2 9/23/09
1909-13 Sporting News Suppliments M101-2 with Cobb 3/17/10
1909-16 Max Stein Postcards PC758
1910 All Star Baseball
1910 American Caramel Co. E91 Set C
1910 American Caramel Co. Die-Cuts E125 Batting
1910 American Caramel Co. Die-Cuts E125 Throwing
1910 American Caramel Co. Pirates E90-2
1910 Anonymous Set of 25 E102 Batting
1910 Anonymous Set of 25 E102 Fielding
1910 Anonymous Set of 30 E98 5 (Red, Green, Blue, Orange)
1910 Darby Chocolates E271
1910 E-Unc Candy
1910 Ju-Ju Drums E286
1910 Mello-Mint E105 Batting
1910 Mello-Mint E105 Throwing
1910 Nadja Pittsburgh Pirates E104-II Blank Back
1910 Nadja Pittsburgh Pirates E104-II Nadja
1910 Old Put Cigars (E98) 5
1910 Orange Borders
1910 PC796 Sepia Postcards PC796 with Cobb
1910 PC796 Sepia Postcards PC796
1910 Pittsburgh Gazette Times Postcard
1910 Standard Caramel Co. E93
1910 Tip-Top Bread Pittsburgh Pirates D322
1910 Williams Caramels E103
1910 W-Unc Strip Cards
1910-11 Sporting Life M116 Blue
1910-11 Sporting Life M116 Pastel
1911 Baltimore Newsboy (E94) M131
1911 Baseball Bats
1911 Blome's Chocolates (E94)
1911 George Close Candy Co. E94
1911 Jones, Keyser and Arras Cabinets 346
1911 Pinkerton T5 853
1911 Pinkerton T5 872
1911 Pinkerton T5 873
1911 Pinkerton Score Cards 872
1911 Sporting Life Cabinets M110
1911-14 Brunners Bread D304
1911-14 Butter Krust Bread D304
1911-14 General Baking Co. D304
1911-14 Martens Bakery D304
1911-14 Weber Bakery D304
1912 Plow's Candy E300
1913 Base Ball Series Notebook Cover (E95/E96)
1913 Colgan's Chips Tin Tops E270
1913 Fatima Team Cards T200 Pittsburg National
1913 Fatima Team Premiums Pittsburg National
1913 The National Game WG5
1913 Tom Barker Game WG6
1913 Voskamp's Coffee Pittsburgh Pirates
1914 Cracker Jack E145-I 68
1914 General Baking Co. D303 Batting
1914 General Baking Co. D303 Throwing
1914 People's Tobacco (Kotton, Mino, Virginia Extra) T216 Batting, 2b.
1914 People's Tobacco (Kotton, Mino, Virginia Extra) T216 Batting, S.S.
1914 People's Tobacco (Kotton, Mino, Virginia Extra) T216 Fielding, 2b.
1914 People's Tobacco (Kotton, Mino, Virginia Extra) T216 Fielding, S.S.
1914 Polo Grounds Game WG4 Hit
1914 Polo Grounds Game WG4 Strike
1914 Postaco
1914 Texas Tommy Type I E224
1914 Texas Tommy Type II E224
1915 American Caramel Co. E106 Batting
1915 American Caramel Co. E106 Throwing
1915 Cracker Jack E145-II 68
1916 Altoona Tribune (M101-4) 182
1916 Block and Kuhl Co. (M101-5) 184
1916 Burgess-Nash Clothiers (M101-4) 182
1916 Everybody's (M101-4) 182
1916 Famous and Barr Clothiers (M101-4) 182
1916 Famous and Barr Clothiers (M101-5) 184
1916 Ferguson Bakery Felt Pennants BF2
1916 Ferguson Bread D381
1916 Fleischmann Bread D381
1916 Gimbels (Large Block Print) (M101-5) 184
1916 Gimbels (Large Print) (M101-4) 182
1916 Globe Clothing Store (M101-4) H801-9 182
1916 Green-Joyce Clothiers (M101-4) 182
1916 Herpolsheimer Co. (M101-4) 182
1916 Holmes to Homes (M101-5) 184
1916 Indianapolis Brewing Co (M101-4) 182
1916 Mall Theatre (M101-4) 182
1916 Morehouse Baking Co. (M101-4) D352 182
1916 Sporting News M101-4 182
1916 Sporting News M101-5 184
1916 Standard Biscuit (M101-5) D350-2 184
1916 Successful Farming (M101-5) 184
1916 Tango Eggs
1916 Ware's (M101-4) 182
1916 Weil Baking Co. (M101-4) D329 182
1917 Boston Store (E135) H801-8 180
1917 Collins-McCarthy E135 180
1917 Standard Biscuit (E135) 180
1917 Weil Baking Co. (E135) D328 180

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Brett and Ted,

While you may not be a fan of grading, I am a fan. A big fan. Every single pre-war card in my possession is graded, and I love it. I love the smell of the plastic, feeling the hard cold smoothness rubbing between my fingers.

I love pop reports. I discount them to a degree due to the cracking and resubmitting that goes on, but it allows me to get a rough idea on overall populations. They are good for comparing issues - ie. e90-2, while tough, is probably in the ballpark to easier than e90-1.

For those of us who are not dinosaurs and do not have 30 years of history in the prewar arena, pop reports are a good way to get an idea of how tough, how easy and how condition sensitive certain issues really are.

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

That's over 130 issues of Wagner... wow... I wonder how many of those issues has a population of less than the T206 Wagner?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Thanks, Richard. After looking at the list it appears that the T206 would actually be one of the more common Wagners out there. Some of those listed are next to impossible, such as Tango Eggs, Allegheny, Darby, etc. Many others are very, very tough, such as Texas Tommys and PC796.

Here's a question. Which Wagner of those listed is the most common? Is the most common Wagner also the cheapest?

And here's another, for Wagner collectors. How many of different issues from the list do you own? I've got 12.

Another question. Wagner appears on the Orange Border Pirates Team card. Does he have an individual card as well?

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

I would say that the most common would probably be the game cards such as Tom Barker and National Game. I believe that, for the grade, these would probably be some of the cheapest on the list.

I am not really a hardcore Wagner collector, but I managed to have 4 of the cards up there.

As for the orange border, I think that there is a card of Wagner by himself and I seem to remember one selling on ebay in an SGC holder not too long ago? Or I may be confusing the issue with another candy card.

I think that the t206 is probably somewhere around the middle or 2/3 down the list as far as scarcity, but that is just a wild guess. I also think that the list is missing some issues, and I do not think that everything listed even exists.

Do any of these Wagners actually exist?

1908-09 Greenfield's Chocolates Postcards (Rose Co.)
1909 Niagara Baking (E101) D355 Batting
1909 Niagara Baking (E101) D355 Throwing
1910 Darby Chocolates E271
1910 Ju-Ju Drums E286
1910 Old Put Cigars (E98) 5
1911 Blome's Chocolates (E94)
1914 People's Tobacco Virginia Extra T216 Batting, 2b.
1914 People's Tobacco Virginia Extra T216 Batting, S.S.
1914 People's Tobacco Virginia Extra T216 Fielding, 2b.
1914 People's Tobacco Virginia Extra T216 Fielding, S.S.
1917 Standard Biscuit (E135) 180
1917 Weil Baking Co. (E135) D328 180

And do all of the D304 and M101-4/5 back variations actually exist?

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach Rice

Richard, i've seen both his Ju Ju Drum and his Darbys. The Ju Ju Drum shows Wagner batting and I believe his Darby's does as well, i'll have to scan the image I have of it.

Wagner does have a 1910 Orange Border. Here is a scan of it. This is not my card.



Another extremely elusive Wagner is his J=k Candy card.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Richard

Back in the 1980's I saw a T216 VE Wagner (throwing-2b). It was in rough shape
but I recall my surprise at the caption "2b" (since we always think of him as
"Mr. Shortstop".......that is before Ernie Banks.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: quan

rman ur on fire today! good job. also to say i'd love to see a scan of an e98 OP overprint or an e94 OP or an e101 NB back. For the life of me I can't bear to call the e98 op and the e101 nb by their D names...they're caramel cards damn it.

From my experience collecting caramel cards the batting pose pop up more often than the throwing variation in all the sets, maybe the exception being the e92s.

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Damn, Ted! A VE Wagner. What I wouldn't do for an opportunity on that one.