Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I understand you have to make a living--just explaining why in my opinion buying cards directly with a return privlege is superior to buying them at auction.

Good luck.

[Archive]

Posted By: PAS

How many cards has Kevin convincingly identified as altered for you, Jim, or anyone else? EDITED TO ADD While I find his posts interesting and like him personally, I am not ready yet to anoint him as some uber-grader keeping tabs on the grading services, and I just wonder why you seem willing to do so?

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

For what it's worth, although I don't know Barry personally, I can see he makes a great effort to run an honest auction. It's the auction houses that are always in question I would not buy from.

I sold an old car last week for a couple grand. The kid and his father tested, inspected and asked questions for a couple hours. They brought the car to their mechanic for a second opinion. In the end they were satisfied. A collector will slap down $50K on a card he can't inspect and with no questions asked based only on an opinion from an unknown person with unknown qualifications.

I don't have the answers and the sky is not falling but I would be very cautious in light of all the problems. Then again maybe I'm not an astute, educated saavy collector.



Kevin

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Not to disparage anyone, but if I were in business and someone asked me if I would guarantee that my products would pass muster with a person who has no affiliation with any recognized business or regulatory entity in my industry, I would politely tell that person to pound sand. My next-door neighbor knows a lot about cars, but I'm pretty sure that Toyota isn't going to let me return my SUV if he doesn't like it. It doesn't mean my neighbor isn't extremely knowledgeable - perhaps even more knowledgeable than some of the people who work for Toyota - but unfortunately, he does not have the qualifications to make that judgement, regardless of how much he knows.

Not to speak for any auction houses, but I'm pretty sure that the grading company holders in which their cards reside is the authentication that they offer. And while they do occasionally make mistakes and differ in their interpretations of various forms of "alteration," I'm more confident in their opinions with respect to authentication, alteration detection, and overall grading than I am of the opinions of most other people. After all, the average grader evaluates more cards in a day or two than most of us see in several months' time. My point: the grading company offers the peace of mind that most of us are seeking. And while altered cards certainly get into holders, my impression is that incrementally more altered cards are rejected. There are certainly holes in the system, but it's nowhere near as bad as the Wild West it used to be.

Not to disparage anyone else, but Bruce, there's no need to sound so envious of the astute, savvy collector investors. They make just as many mistakes as you do, albeit on a grander scale since they invest so much more in the hobby than you or I.

-Al

edited for more clarity and to sound less disparaging.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Jim,

For the vendor, the problem with return privileges is that it creates a cash flow problem. Suppose I sold you a $50,000 card and I earned $10,000 on the deal. Then one year later you want to return the card. Suppose 10 customers want to do this in one month.

Basically the customers are asking for $500,000 to be returned to them.

For most vendors that would present a serious problem.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- fair enough.

And I agree with Peter- Kevin knows a lot about card alterations, but he's not a professional. He taught himself because he wanted to learn, but he's not the Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler- yet. Maybe some day he will be.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

Relax--I have return privleges with a number of major dealers I buy from.

Al,

I respectfully disagree on part of your thinking. I think its reasonable when buying an expensive collectible to make the sale contingent upon an independent experts view that the collectible has not been altered in any way and to have a return privlege if it is judged by that expert to be altered. I don't buy the analogy to a car.

On our friend Kevin, while he may not have all the answers he certainly has recognized a fair amout of altered cards in holders and has shown the ability to get alterations by the best graders in the business. Not only did Kevin not pay me to say this but I am buying him dinner the week after next.

[Archive]

Posted By: PAS

I thought PSA SGC and GAI were independent experts, Jim.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter -- they're not independent experts with regard to reviewing cards that they encapsulate.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jim:

I agree with what you're saying, completely.

The issue lies in the term "independent expert."

The "independent expert" is not Kevin (no disrespect intended), it is SGC or PSA. The grading company has already rendered its opinion on the card. In my analogy, Toyota is not going to let me bring a new car to my neighbor after I buy it. They might let my neighbor take a look at it and render an opinion before I buy it, but most auction houses will do the same thing. They'll send you bigger scans, many will let you come in and see the cards, and I've even heard of some smaller auction houses shipping cards directly to potential bidders for evaluation.

But the hobby, in general, has recognized experts in the field of authentication and grading, both of which have developed their good standing with a decade of respectable work, consumer confidence, brand-building, and all the other things that legitimate businesses need to do in order to legitimize themselves in the eyes of their industry. They do, indeed, make mistakes - same as Toyota occasionally builds a lemon - but that does not make them any less qualified to do their jobs. And the industry recognizes them as such.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

What best graders has Kevin got stuff past? Mike Baker said he knows of no cards Kevin has got past GAI. And you say "graders" meaning plural....please elaborate....Has he got stuff by SGC?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

Kevin has told me things that he may have meant to be in confidence or perhaps I misunderstood. Either way, best if anyone addressed it that its him.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Jim,

Would you be willing to bypass having an expert examine a card if your return privilege was unconditional? Basically, you could return the card any time you wanted to within a year.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

Yes although its sort of a ridiculous premise. So a have a lifelong option to put the card back to the dealer--I wish everything were like that.

Al,

I hope you are right--my sense is that the card doctors have at times and may in the future be ahead of the grading companies.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rand Brotman

if a buyer wins a graded card, why does the auction house have to be responsible when the 3rd party is the one that certified it? Jim C has a ton of high grade psa cards, but they were graded along time ago, i would think there could be many over graded cards in those old holders... maybe Kevin should see those first. so if Jim has 100 psa 8's that are really 7's should he get the difference back from psa?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Thats really intelligent Rand--discussion ended.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rand Brotman

No offense Jim, but old psa graded cards are dicey in todays world, i wonder how many of your psa 8 - 9 - 10's would really garner those grades if resubmitted today. anyhow, why should any auction house have to give a guarantee when its in a psa holder. psa should stand behind their cards, especially the overgraded & trimmed ones.

[Archive]

Posted By: PS

In my opinion it is unreasonable to expect an auctioneer like Barry selling cards that have already been authenticated and graded by independent experts to make a sale of a consigned card contingent on further review by another grader. This extends to another grading service, and certainly to any individuals not generally accepted as experts in the field. When one buys a graded card one is buying the opinion of the company that slabbed it -- period. If an obvious, blatant mistake has been made such that an experienced auctioneer knows there is a problem, that is another matter. But short of that, a business selling consignments cannot realistically offer a right of return based on a further review by the buyer's choice of reviewer.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

To take Peter's point a step further, even if I agreed to such a contingency my consignors very well may not, and I wouldn't blame them. And if I start losing my consignors, my business ceases to exist. If I sell a card that was graded by one of the big three I feel I have done my due diligence. People can argue with this point but there is only so much I can do. If every graded card is subject to further review I will get calls two months after consignors are paid asking for a refund. No auction house would allow such a thing to happen. I guess every transaction has some risk, however small.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

I'm getting way too much pleasure from Bruce's posts. It's gotten to where I'm disappointed if I come to the BOARD and he doesn't have a post up.

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: PS

Barry you are right, and the right of return doubtless would be abused by people who decided they paid too much, or couldn't flip the card as they expected, and so on.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Barry,

As I said you have to run your business and in my opinion you are unquestionably honest--but like many others you may not have the expertise to tell if a card has been tampered with before it got slabbed.

Peter,

It may be unreasonable but when dealers who do not sell cards at auction but via the old fashioned way are willing to offer that service it makes it easy to decide where I should buy my cards if given the choice.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- You are absolutely correct. I have neither the expertise nor the eyesight to detect a subtle alteration. And that's why we all send tons of money to the big three grading companies. I, or my consignor, pays them a fee for the expertise that they have, and we don't, to detect the alterations.

That's why when you buy a house you pay a building inspector to look for termites and structural flaws. He has the expertise that the buyer and seller don't.

I will repeat for the 187th time- let the big three do the work we pay them for. I can only do so much.

[Archive]

Posted By: rand

here we go again, instead of Jim C looking to hold his beloved PSA accountable, he wants to hold the dealer or auction house responsible for his purchase. WHY is it anybodys responsibility to guarantee the card once PSA has done their part? if Jim buys another vaunted psa 9 or 10 he should take it up with PSA if the card is misgraded. Barry does not have to be an expert, or anyone else for that matter, if the card was sent to the # 1 grading service in the world and they put their opinion in a plastic holder it should be a non issue "Right?" Jim wants to BLAME sellers instead of going to the source. What if Jim's psa 10's are mostly 9's in todays world or even worse....trimmed, ever so slightly...Who ya gonna call???

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Rand,

Are you a troll using a different name than your real one?

[Archive]

Posted By: rand

have nothing to hide. never have. what's a troll? You express your opinions, have i called you an abrasive name?

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response."

[Archive]

Posted By: rand

thanks, i did not know that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul Moss

One of the reasons we employ the services of grading companies is to establish a mutually acceptable plateau of what a card is, and its relative value commensurate to the assigned grade. We pay for this service which encompasses more than just entombing a card in plastic. As we deal with the major grading services, those who guarantee the authenticity and particular grade of a card with a check should the card not prove to be as they had originally ascertained, why on God's green earth should a dealer be expected a year later to refund the purchase price of a card because that particular card might not be as the grading company had originally established? Take it up with the grading service, not the dealer.

Sure, altered stuff slips through the cracks, it's a given considering the time allocated to inspecting the card by the respective company. What do people expect given the relative low costs of grading? Overall, the percentage of stuff getting through is small nowadays. Sure, there's plenty of crap in many of the early slabs of the grading companies, I mean cards that have been worked over harder than a hooker at a bachelor party, but the overall number today is much smaller. For the relative low costs in grading, coupled with their respective guarantees, it's a bargain.

Did I just hear "Spend more time evaluating the card" from the back of the room? OK, are you willing to pay what it would take to really give a card a truly thorough examination? I mean running the card under different UV frequencies, various color filters, microscopic examination of areas and edges that are questionable, electronic calipers for overall paper thickness, and the tried and true eyes of someone who has been around the block?

Sorry, but if I sold a slabbed card from a major company a year or two or three ago, and you now don't like it. I'd have to say sorry. I paid for that company's expertise and guarantee, and we both accepted these facts at the time of sale.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Bingo.

Thanks, Paul. In your ability to crystallize concepts and articulate them in writing, you have a gift.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

Paul - not to get the thread off topic, but I thought the grading companies do a number of the things you just listed for my $10 grading fee. If that is not the case, can someone in the know, share with us the process one of these companies uses for grading a pre-war card?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Rand (hi Rand) is not a troll, he has his email up, and has his full name up many times. I don't always agree with him but I respect his opinions as I do everyone elses. If he were remaining anonymous he would have already been banned.....

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

I see absolutely nothing wrong with JimC or anyone else asking a dealer to give him return priviledges and telling them he's sending the card to someone else (in this case, Kevin) for approval. If the dealer is not interested in that, then he doesn't have to agree, and there's no sale. Or the buyer has to take the risk himself if he wants to. How often has a guy bought a card in a SGC/PSA holder, only to find that it didn't cross to the other company, and then re-sell it...I think it happens fairly often since people like consistency with their sets.

It looks like Barry isn't interested in doing that (and neither would I if I were an auction house with material on consignment), so Jim won't bid. No big deal, two reasonable people have decided they can't meet each other's requirements, and there's no deal. It happens all the time in life and business, it doesn't mean they have to be antagonists.

I know some guys have cards in PSA holders sent to SGC (and vice versa), and then they only purcahse if the card crosses. That's pretty much the same thing, except the parties are identifiying PSA and SGC as the independent evaluators. Substitute someone else' name, and its no different. Again, the seller doesn't have to agree. I know many sellers wouldn't agree to let anyone send their card in a PSA holder (or SGC) to the rival company and only buy it if it crosses...that's fine too.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

What if I sell a card in an SGC holder, the buyer gets it and shows it to Kevin, and Kevin feels it could be altered?

The only thing we know with absolute certainty is one of them is right and the other is wrong. But which one?

In that scenario am I allowed to say I agree with SGC and disagree with Kevin (just an example, nothing personal)?

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

I agree with King. I presume that both sides of the transaction are free to negotiate terms mutually agreeable to them. If the terms are unacceptable on either side they don't have to do the deal, or in the case of an auction house, one just doesn't have to bid.

Seems simple enough to me.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- I couldn't agree with you more.

When you are in business you try to please everybody, but you simply can't. I don't expect everyone who receives a catalog will bid (typically 10-15% actually do participate) and I can't expect 100% of my customers to agree with all my policies. I know that going in. But I do the best I can.

If I sell a card that has been graded, it's pretty much all sales are final. It would take something major for me to refund money on a slabbed card, though it is within the realm of possibility. Bidders know this and make their decisions accordingly. They are all free to bid or not to bid.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul Moss

King

I see no problem with someone asking the opinion of another party, and that sale contingent upon said opinion. That is strictly up to the buyer and seller at the time of sale. I was refering to sales (way) after the fact. We've all been involved in Byzantine, complicated, multi party five-way deals that are structured where sale X will transpire providing trade Y goes through to party A who will underwite the purchase as soon as payment comes through from auction house Z. I see no difference.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul Moss

"Paul - not to get the thread off topic, but I thought the grading companies do a number of the things you just listed for my $10 grading fee. If that is not the case, can someone in the know, share with us the process one of these companies uses for grading a pre-war card?"


For $10, you'll receive a 15-30 second examination under a high intensity light by a grader sitting at a cubicle in a pitch black room reminiscent of a depressing bombshelter who'll assign a grade, two pieces of plastic sealed together with an ultrasonic sealer, and a paper label.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

Paul - I assume that was sarcasm; they must at a minimum measure the card, no? Also, which grading company do you know that works as you described?

BTW, here's PSA's stated process:
http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

King--exactly--Steve, Barry--we are all saying the same thing. Hypothetically Barry, to meet my criteria--how about if I bid and won psa high end cards at your auction and we made the sale contingent upon sgc saying the cards were legit--would you agree to it then? Again not that they would grade it the same number--only that they would say it has not been tampered with?

Paul,

In terms of a return privlege to a dealer that sold me the card, the deal would be that it has to be sent out immediately--its not an indefinate return privlege.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

Are you saying that "Kevin Saucier" can erase the value of a graded card simply by claiming that it is altered in the holder? Because if so, I think you might want to consider re-valuing your collection.

The beauty of a graded card is that it bears the brand and credibility of the grading company along with the cardboard inside the holder. When you buy a graded card, you are essentially buying the cardboard and the flip. Without those precious flips from the grading services all of our cards would be worth alot less. Furthermore, once a card has a flip from a credible grading company there is nothing "Kevin Saucier" can do to lower the value. Talk talk talk all he wants, a PSA 8 or an SGC 88 will sell on the open market at a market price.

If you want to grade the graders and demand every card pass the personal inspection of "Kevin Saucier" ok, but remember when you try to sell your cards I hope "Kevin" is not in country.

For every card he keeps you from buying now (that is graded by PSA or SGC) conversely he might keep someone else from buying when and if your cards hit the auction block. Do you really want "Kevin's" opinion to supercede your 25,000 flips when the time comes to sell? I would argue those flips not the cardboard inside your 25,000 cards are the buttress to any value in your collection.

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- that's a reasonable request, but I would still have to run it by my consignor. He would have to sign off on it. If he said absolutely not, I would be forced to respectfully decline.

[Archive]

Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Jim,

Suppose an auction house sells a slabbed card. The new owner sends it to another grading service to have it put in their slab, only to be provided with incontrovertible evidence the card has been altered. The new owner then makes a demand to the auction house to have the sale rescinded and his money refunded. The auction house agrees to refund the money contingent on the consignor returning to the auction house the proceeds of the sale. Question -- What should the consignor do?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- this would likely be done before the consignor was paid. I would expect a bidder to state this as a contingency of his bidding; therefore, the money would be held in escrow while the card was being reviewed.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul Moss

"Paul - I assume that was sarcasm; they must at a minimum measure the card, no? Also, which grading company do you know that works as you described?"

Though being a sarcastic butthead is one of my claims to fame, in this particular case, no.

A card will be measured if it doesn't look right, but as a matter of procedure for each and every card, no way. The more one handles cards, the easier it is to spot that which is out of the normal accepted parameters. Having toured two of the three major companies, the environment is as described. If I worked under the conditions graders do, I'd become a homicidal maniac by lunchtime on the first day of employment.


Jim

Not trying to bust your chops here. As I stated, if the conditions of sale are established upfront relating to a second opinion, and we agree ahead of time, no problem whatsoever. As for the crossover aspect eh, I suppose it depends on the deal at the time. Of course, if it not only crosses, but comes back at a higher grade, there would of course be a proviso that I am duly compensated accordingly.

The house has to have a little edge in this type of deal.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Barry,

Don't quit your day job. The vast majority of collectors are very comfortable with graded cards and the process of buying them at auction. Your Auction comes with alot of integrity and I for one will be bidding. However, I have saved up a few questions and I be calling you tonight during the extended bidding to discuss. Smiley Face.

CB

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Communication is key, guys. I bought this blue Old Put from one of Barry's auctions about 3-4 years ago. It was raw and the sale was contingent upon it getting a numerical grade. Barry was informed beforehand and had no issue......it worked out perfectly. This stuff is easy if you communicate timely and effectively....regards

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Charlie, and I hope the questions aren't too difficult!

At the time Leon bought that blue Old Put he was just an acquaintance, but I was impresed by how well he communicated and how quickly he got the card graded. There was never an issue.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Guys,

All I want to do is take precautions I am not buying a card that has been altered. Whether its Kevin that gives a card a second look or Mike Baker or one of Dave's guys that is immaterial. If I am spending $10,000 for a card at this point I want someone elses opinion before I buy it.
Charlie--why is that unreasonable?

Corey,

The auctioneer would make clear going into the auction what the conditions are. Under what you described, buyer would be out of luck but if 2 sides agreed up front purchase of PSA card contingent upon SGC saying card was legit then auctioneer having discussed this with consigner beforehand would be obligated to make good on money if card viewed by SGC as altered.

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

Barry: "In that scenario am I allowed to say I agree with SGC and disagree with Kevin (just an example, nothing personal)?"

Sure...why not? but if you agreed to use Kevin's (or someone else's) opinion before the transaction, then that's a different story. If there was no agreement on another eye looking at the card before the transaction, then a buyer shouldn't expect to get a refund.